Theatre, Unions and UBI with Tiffany Lyndall-Knight

Get ready to be captivated as we engage in a riveting conversation with award-winning actor, director, and lecturer Tiffany Lyndall-Knight. Born in Canada and raised in Australia, Tiffany has cemented herself as an industry stalwart with several nominations for Jesse Theater Richardson Awards. Her prowess extends from the stage to the screen, featuring in hit shows like Battlestar Galactica, Stargate, and Supernatural. Her insights on navigating the acting realm are worth a listen for all, from the greenest novices to the most experienced professionals.

We dig deep into Tiffany's journey, from the early beginnings winning a theatre competition in school, to founding her own theatre company and landing breakthrough roles in the Sci-Fi industry. Her story paints an inspiring picture of the importance of finding your tribe within the industry. We also navigate the intricate world of union action, as Tiffany shares her perspective as the National Vice President with the Media Entertainment and Arts Alliance (MEAA) on the ongoing strike action in Los Angeles.

But Tiffany's world isn't limited to acting and directing. As our conversation progresses, we also touch on timely and relevant topics like the potential benefits of Universal Basic Income (UBI) for actors, sexual harassment in the entertainment industry, and the importance of formal actor training. Her insights, backed by her vast experience and astute observations, make this an enlightening episode that you won't want to miss. Get comfortable, tune in, and let's explore the world of acting with Tiffany  Lyndall-Knight.

Check Tiffany out on IMDB.

Castability 
Castability is a new game changing app that is a must have for every actor.

Transcript

David John Clark: 0:45

Welcome, welcome everyone back to another episode of the Late Bloomer Actor with, me, David John Clark, the Late Bloomer Actor. Today I've got a great guest out of Adelaide, a Canadian born and Australian bred, Tiffany Lyndall- Knight. She's at home on both stage and screen. She's been nominated for four Jesse Theater Richardson awards. The theater credits spent eight seasons with Vancouver's Barton the Beach Shakespeare Festival. Highlights including Ariel in the Tempest, olivia 12th night, helena in a Midsummer Night's Dream and Reagan in Kinley. She's a graduate of Toronto's acclaimed George Brown Theatre School.

David John Clark: 1:24

Tiffany has taught and created theater with young people throughout her career. She has developed programs for Barton the Beach's Education Division, was a founder of the Gateway Academy of Performing Arts at the Gateway Theater in Richmond and has taught at the William Davis Center for Performing Arts, the University of British Columbia and the Adelaide Center for Arts and is now currently training and teaching students at the Flinders University Drama Center here in South Australia. On screen she has appeared in many lead and recurring roles, including the popular television series Battlestar Galactica back in 2004,. Defensi City Hall 2005,. Stargate 1997 and my son's favorite, my wife's favorite Supernatural, which we do talk about in the episode. So make sure you listen out for that because something a bit of exciting news there for Connor, who's going to love that one. She was a co-creator and actor in the feature festival and won most popular Canadian film at the Vancouver International Film Festival in 2008. It's great to have her on the episode.

David John Clark: 2:27

Tiffany is a big part of the Adelaide acting scene. As I said, she's a lecturer at the Flinders University as well as National Vice President with the Media, entertainment and Arts Alliance, the MEAA being Australian Union. So we have a big chat about All Things Union with the strike action in the States at the moment and delve into a little bit about what we talked about last month with Audrey Moore. So if you haven't checked out last month's episode, make sure you do so. Here we go, enjoy the episode and we'll see you on set. Good morning everyone. Well, it's morning for me and it is morning for Tiffany Liddle Knight, who we have on the show today. Welcome, tiffany.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 3:09

Hello David, how are you?

David John Clark: 3:10

I'm good. I'm good it's. They teased us a bit with spring coming, didn't they? And now it's another winter's day, as I can tell by your nice jacket jumper that you've got on there.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 3:19

Yeah, it's a chilly day in Adelaide, in the Adelaide Hills.

David John Clark: 3:23

Wonderful, and I think we we both had a child issue this morning, with both your child, your daughter and my son had slept in, so it didn't matter too much for me because he had his car to get to school, but you had to quickly dash off and get your daughter to school, is that correct?

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 3:38

I did, I did. So I'm just going through some of my you know my acting techniques for getting centered and getting present here again, but like all good sort of shaking it all off.

David John Clark: 3:47

So here we are, good to go. I love it. Well, thank you very much for coming on the show. So, tiffany, I wanted to have a quick chat to you about all things acting, and, and, and. You've got a variety of things that we can talk about, which is great. But firstly, just for the viewers that don't know much about you, I was wondering if you could quickly go into who Tiffany Lindell Knight is, your background and how you got into acting and where you are today.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 4:14

Ok, oh, it feels like a long time. All of a sudden I am an actor and I'm a director and I also am a lecturer in drama at Flinders University here in Adelaide, south Australia, and, I guess, garnerland, and we're very lucky to be here and I guess I started acting like so many people do because it was the place where I felt like I found my, my tribe and my people. As you can probably hear, I have a Canadian, so I've got a Canadian, australian and my accent reflects that I'm a bit of a hybrid that way. And we moved to Australia when I was about nine and I really felt that thing of not belonging. I didn't didn't fit in with the Australian sort of sport, loving culture, and people mistook me for a yank. I got that a lot and it was. And so it was really theatre where I first found that I was able to become someone else and transform and find all those other people who wanted to do that as well. And I I was very lucky to win competition in my final year of school, in year 12, I won the Bell Shakespeare Theatre Competition, which was inaugurated by Sam Wannamaker, who at the time was trying to hit this crazy dream of rebuilding the Globe Theatre and so, as part of his fundraising and awareness building, he did this sort of international competition of getting young people to to explore Shakespeare, both in terms of performance and design and music, anything sort of inspired by that and I and I won this, this, this thing. John Bell and Liz Mullinare were some of the adjudicators and and it was, you know, that was sort of for me like a defining moment. Well, this is what I knew, and I was lucky to go to what was at the time the, the foundations of the Globe Theatre. They were just still building it.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 6:14

Wow, and I'm so old, and there was, and there was some of the things that I did, and there was some fellow I didn't really know called Mark Rylance who took me around and walked me around and I was, you know, sort of blithely oblivious to the whole thing, but it was extremely exciting. So I thought, what is it going to be an actor? I'll go to NIDA. And I didn't get into NIDA three times. So I was told, you know, I was told that first time round they took me aside and said go and get some life experience. You know, you're just you're too young. So I ended up doing a communications degree for a year and dropping out and going to Canada to spend six months in Canada to spend some time with my father.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 6:59

And I just looked up in the yellow pages you know theatre schools and I found this little place called Toronto Studio Players. And it was this little theatre company, blackbuck's Theatre, that had been built in an old meat packers factory and they had stolen the set from a film called the Fly starring Jeff Goldblum. They'd stolen the set that had been shot there. Wow, and they built this theatre. Yeah, it was great. And they said you know, tiffany Light, oh, that's a name we could put on a marquee. And they I was, you know, sold by them as well.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 7:34

But I started by, I got a little grant like within a week I was on a government grant, making a few hundred bucks a week. And the first thing they did was they said you want to? You want to design the lighting plot for our Friday night cabaret? And I went yeah, sure, great, how do I do that? And the guy said well, you know, there's a bookstore down in Queen West. Go and buy yourself a book and teach yourself how to do it and we'll help out.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 7:56

So I did, and it was just the most amazing opportunity, because I spent a summer there directing and acting, I produced a festival, I learned a little bit about arts administration and and I found my tribe.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 8:12

So, and and that persuaded me to audition for theatre schools in Toronto and I got my pick, which was which was, you know, so different, after being sort of, you know, discouraged by by NIDA.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 8:25

But I really learned about in that time that you know you have to find your tribe and you have to find the, the, the training that is right for you and the path that's right for you. So I did this conservatory program at George Brown Theatre School in Toronto, which was three years, it was, you know, 12 hours a day, six days a week, wow. And and then I was ready, very homesick and ready to come back to Australia, but I fortunately was offered by the last director that they brought in, douglas Campbell offered me a season at Barton the Beach Shakespeare Festival, which is it is well, it's the biggest Shakespeare Festival in Western in Western Canada. So, and I was performing in rep that first year, playing hero in Much Ado About Nothing and then just a lady in a green dress and the merchant of Venice, but that led to, you know, seven seasons with Barton the Beach and a career in film and.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 9:20

TV and yeah, blah, blah, blah. That's how it started, and then I love it. We've talked a lot.

David John Clark: 9:28

We've talked a lot on the podcast about sliding doors, and that's. That's a giant one for you, isn't it with night is saying no, and then sending you on a different path, and then the path is open that up for you. That is just amazing. So you, you look back on your life and you go. You wouldn't do it any different way.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 9:48

No, God, I couldn't do it any different way? No, because if I hadn't gone the way I did, I wouldn't have met my husband and had my kids, you know. So, coming back to Adelaide, was I well? I'm not sure I was I well. Adelaide was not my hometown. Sydney was my hometown. We came here because my parents had relocated. Adelaide was my mom's hometown.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 10:09

And so we came and visited and then went oh gee, this is, this is a bit of all right, you can, you know you can. You can still own property. You couldn't do that in Vancouver at that time, it was or Sydney or Sydney, that's right. So, yeah, it's taken me on a really circuitous journey, but you know I I'm really glad we're here because I had sort of found, you know, after 12 years in Vancouver doing you know, I, sort of hit some of the goals that I really wanted to do. I'd done a lot of Shakespeare, I had done a fair amount of film and television there and I had that experience.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 10:48

And then I went you know what else is there? And and our family was a real priority. My husband was in the arts as well and you know two, two actors in one of the most expensive cities in the world was just, it was not sustainable. Yeah, it was. And so I thought, well, if I come to Adelaide, I'm not going to be acting as much, but I have an opportunity hopefully to teach and I want to direct more. And I thought, if I my sort of my plan was, if I directed enough young people and they graduated, they eventually might hire me and or want to collaborate with me, and that's that's. That actually is sort of what's happened.

David John Clark: 11:31

So, yeah, I did. We want to talk. I want to talk a bit about the two biggest things that you have in Adelaide now You're you're a teacher and a lecturer at Flinders University and we'll go back in a second and talk about that as well as you're in the our equities, actors equity, or the MEAA, the media entertainment arts alliance, which is the Australian Union for Actors. So I also got a couple of questions there. But you've done really well on the acting side of things and I'll come back to that as a finish to our podcast, because you've got a bit of a slight cult following on the internet after playing Silent Hybrid, I believe. I'm not sure if you're aware of a bit of a cult thing going on there. How did that all happen? And give us a bit of an insight into that, because that's the hybrid in Battlestow Galactica.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 12:20

That was well. Vancouver is really known for its or at the time it was really known for its sci-fi American television industry. Because it's the weather is a lot like it is here in Adelaide today it's often very misty, very rainy and, you know, evocative and mysterious and it also can look like a big American city. And so Vancouver was. You know it was called Hollywood North at the time because the dollar is better for American production and we have great crews and great actors. But the problem for Adelaide or for Vancouver actors at the time was that they were getting a lot of sort of what we call 50 Worders here or day players, bit parts maybe you know principles and stuff, but not a lot of opportunities to do those like really significant leading roles. And Battlestar Galactica was a real ground breaker for that. Karine Mersen was the casting director on that and she really pushed to have Canadians in some of the major fundamental roles, and so everyone was really excited about that prospect and I had been auditioning for Hyattie and Karine for years. I worked as a reader for them in auditions quite a lot, so they sort of knew me and they brought me in for this role of the hybrid and I.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 13:41

So the hybrid for you know those who aren't familiar with Battlestow Galactica, which was a remake of the original the hybrid is like the brain of all the Cylon ships, so the whole fleet is controlled by this half human, half machine that lies in a vat of water and sort of spouts psycho babble and like basically climaxes and that lets the whole ship go into hyperspace. Wow, so, yeah, yeah so. So they gave me this really really strange piece of text to work on for my audition. That was really just tech like. It was like a poem but out of technical jargon and I had done a lot of Shakespeare. So I really thought I'll take this piece apart like a piece of text, like a piece, like a dense piece of 600 year old text and and the and the characters sort of channels, all this information and feeds and then sort of spouts that out like an oracle.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 14:43

So I had just had my, my second child, my daughter, so she was about six months old, and I kind of imagined well, you know, I wonder if the hybrid is kind of like being in utero, where you hear all this information and you sort of interpret it in a way that has no frame of reference to the outside world, and that was sort of my path into trying to find this character and I guess it worked because I got the part and it was. It was such a thrill because I was a huge fan I'm a big sci-fi fan, anyhow, and a really close friend of mine, alessandro Giuliani, had a significant role on that part. He played Gator on that role, so we knew the show a lot from the outside. So it was I won't lie one of the biggest thrills of my life to walk onto that set and to see it all in 3d after watching it in 2d for so long.

David John Clark: 15:36

I love it. I mean, I have to admit I actually haven't seen the series. I was a big fan of the original and it's certainly on a long list of TV series that I'm trying to catch up on, so I will certainly get around to seeing it because I think it's that the Big Bang Theory promoted it a lot with the the actress I've forgotten her name now because one of the characters on Big Bang Theory loves her, so yeah yeah, it's well, time magazine at the time said it was one of the best television shows of all time.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 16:06

So it is like it it's. It's a very different from the original. I think you'd really enjoy it. It was pretty groundbreaking.

David John Clark: 16:14

Yeah, I've seen. I've seen components of it and trailers and stuff and certainly loved what they've they've done to it, because I mean, the original series was quite I was old and very different, of course, and we got new technology make better stuff, so that's fantastic. And just quickly while we're there, she also didn't kind of my son or love this and I had to ask you did an episode on supernatural which is also filmed up in Canada.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 16:39

I did. I did do a role at super. That's amazing. That's still just that. That just keeps on going that show.

David John Clark: 16:46

Yeah, I love it. We we finished watching it. I had, I remember, sitting the last episode, connor sitting with my wife Kelly and the ball in their eyes out when it was all over. It was so sad and hilarious from my point of view. So Did you get to meet the boys Jensen and Jared at all? I Did.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 17:07

I did meet them yeah they'd, but oh.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 17:11

Yeah, I did that. It was interesting. I mean, that was one of those examples where I was like I was a day player and so you learn when you get on different sets. You really do have to learn what the what the lead actors need and what they want, and you know how much they're going to engage with you and how much they don't, and so that one, like it was, that was very much one of those ones where you were told that's great that you've made all these choices, but your job is to be a functionary and just give the information. That's interesting. Yeah, yeah, all right.

David John Clark: 17:44

Well, let's just step away from the acting a little bit, and we'll come back to that at the end. You're currently Vice president with the MEAA and have been for. Is it pushing two years now a bit longer? It's about two years now.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 18:00

Yeah, it's the last month I spoke with Audrey Moore out of Los Angeles.

David John Clark: 18:03

In relation to the current strike action by writers and actors that's on in LA I think they're into their second month now for actors and a bit longer for the writers. As a an Australian Union leader with the MEA, what's your take on the strike action and how does it affect the striking production and actors? Yeah, look, it's, it's.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 18:26

It's an exciting time to be a union member. You know, particularly, I think, in Australia we've Unionism has really suffered since the Howard era and the Union, the unions in in Australia, how, like the acting union, has historically not had the same sort of Clout as the unions in the United States because of, because of the way Government has sort of restructured things and with the, with the changes right now, with the labor government right now, there is certainly a real upswell of excitement that we might be able to have, you know, industrial bargaining again for the first time and it's it's just, it's such an important time for I I Think for artists to be able to work as, like a canary in the coal mine really for so many of the issues that the wider economy is dealing with in terms of, you know, the gig economy and the, the rights of precarious workers and, of course, the impacts of artificial intelligence intelligence on the work that we do.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 19:38

So MEAA stands in solidarity with sag after and with the writers guild as well. At the moment, you know, we've had a couple of productions up in Queensland that have been impacted, so productions that have had to be shut down because they had Lead actors who are sag actor members who have stepped away from work and that's meant that Equity members, particularly in crew, have been impacted. A couple of hundred equity members have been impacted by that. But we support the action, we recognize that the, the, the issues that our comrades are fighting for, are the ones that are going to be a matter of time before they're impacting us here.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 20:22

That yeah, that said, though, I should point out though I mean in terms of the AI issue. Um, I mean, we've all heard the story of of extras being given a hundred bucks or hundred and fifty bucks for, you know, indefinite use of their image. That actually is a clause that's written out of our agreements in Australia, so we do not allow Productions to use a person's image outside of that, outside of that production. So that's actually sort of been a test case for some of the the productions that have been coming here from the United States and they are taking notes of the yeah, of the limitations that we've gotten place in our agreements.

David John Clark: 21:04

It's interesting, isn't it? Because I mean AI, I mean they could just make actors anyway, so why would they want to scan an actual person in? I can see the benefit. They want real people. Um, well, then pay for it or go and make a computer image. I mean I think it's going to be a thing anyway, if that hasn't already happened. I mean, you look at a crowd scene of 10 000 people in a stadium or Coliseum for Game of Thrones or something. They they would have to be computer generators. We can't stop that from happening, but I do see the the pros of that. We we have to allow people to have their image, and I think it came down to, uh, consent and compensation was the biggest thing they talk about. That is, um, the am p, tp in America. They want to take that away, take away and take away your compensation, which is disgusting.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 21:53

Yeah, that's right, that's exactly right, and you know, and, as you say, compensation is the other huge issue that you know, so that the SAG, after a fighting for their, their rights with residuals, could, because the model has just changed so quickly with streaming services, and that's an issue that we're dealing with as well. Here in Australia, we're currently in negotiations right now for with with our theater organizations, so our performers collective agreement is under negotiation right now, and one of the things that we're fighting for in that area, as well as compensation to you know, to recognize how the cost of living has so severely impacted the, the economy, is we're also dealing with, you know, the the desire to, the desire of theater companies to be able to, to digitize productions and use that as a product, and that's you know that's also a concern. There's pros and cons to that. You know. By digitizing and live streaming or filming productions, yes, it gives an opportunity for regional areas to to see these productions. That provides access.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 23:02

However, on the other hand, that could completely under undercut our, our thriving touring industry in theaters, you know, and there's something so important about regional companies, regional people, communities, being able to see live actors doing their work and connecting with an audience in that way. So so there's, you know, there is so much change. It's, it's an exciting time, but also we have to have we have to have the workers have a voice, have a collective voice, to be able to identify that they are a fundamental part of the equation and needs to be recognized, you know, compensated for that.

David John Clark: 23:46

Because productions don't work without actors or crew. Well, that's right, and there's so much money involved and I think they've talked about a little bit of the money, of what they, what the unions in America are looking for, what say Agafato is looking for, and it the percentage of an increase is is minuscule to the money that the, the leaders, are taking away. And I think one of the biggest problems we have on social media with this strike is that people go oh, whoa is maybe the actors want more money, but they're thinking of the Tom Cruise's in the world that are on. They get paid millions and millions of dollars, which good for them, that's great, but 98% of actors can't afford to put food on their table in America. So that's where it's wrong. It's disgusting.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 24:30

Yeah, yeah, well, I mean we're seeing that again.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 24:34

I mean our industry has has had a lot of issues and I think that has has has been at the front edge of identifying these sort of inequities that are a bigger issue across the whole economy, and I think that's why it's important that we keep these issues alive in the public sphere because I mean, we're seeing, with the, you know, the vast income that Alan Joyce has been walking away with with the shares that are being taken as a part of his package, while the workers are struggling and the population is struggling.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 25:09

So I think one of the advantages of, you know, one of the one of the important roles that our union has, is that we are, we are the storytellers, we are the communicators and we should be able to use those skills to not just talk about the actors but how the actors I mean we've been the gig workers long before they were gig workers we understand what precarity you know precarity is and we can share that story because if you can take advantage of one industry, it's very easy for that to spread across the finger and that leads into something that I did talk again last month with Audrey about this, and it's a big thing that I follow.

David John Clark: 25:48

I came across an article in the equity magazine from January last year where you were discussing the benefits of UBI universal basic income, which for the arts sector, but also for many sectors, which is what we've just talked about. I've been following our research on our UBI for years now and I'm truly disappointed that it's it's never really takes hold wherever it's discussed. It's been discussed in America and Europe and I believe in Australia as well. What's your take on that and where do you get your background from UBI and how do you see it being great for actors or our economy and just all workers in general if it was to be implemented in some way?

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 26:26

Oh look, there's just there's been so much research conducted in small pockets.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 26:30

There was, I mean, ireland currently is trialing a UBI system specifically for the arts, but there have been examples in for, for, for wider communities in, I think, the Saskatchewan there was one in the 1950s or 60s Sorry to have that off the top of my head and in pockets in communities all around the world there's been many, many examples of the success of it not only providing opportunities for people to work and to study but also to care, you know, to finally actually reflect how there is, you know, an economic quant quantification, or should be, to the caring that we do in our society.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 27:17

So, and you know, there's just there's so much data about how levels of depression drop away when people have a basic income, or how they give the they have the opportunity to, to retrain, to give to their community in ways that we don't normally value.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 27:34

And you know, frankly, I mean you can see that we had our own little, you know enforced example of that with JobKeeper during during COVID, and there was, there was a great amount of evidence that we see it in our community, in the arts, but also in the wider community, of people having, you know, enormously reduced levels of anxiety and depression. I know from anecdotally a wonderful actor, patrick Graham, who I know he's one of our local actors here in South Australia and his in his brother, duncan Graham, who's a very successful playwright. Patrick was telling me a couple of months ago that it was only because of JobKeeper for the first time in his his long career that he's actually had a steady income for any point of time, and during that time he started a production company and he and Duncan produced a film that opened the Adelaide Film Festival last year.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 28:32

So it was, you know it's. It was not a lot of money that we were we were given. That was doled out to people, but it has reaped enormous rewards long term for for individuals, but also, I would say, for the community as well.

David John Clark: 28:48

Yeah, and it's not it's about. It's not about free money per se, is it we? We use the concept that we talked about how it will worse. You used to have 10 checkout checks, as they call them here in Australia, working and you go through and they scan all your shopping in, or, on the old days, and type it in. But now we'll have one checkout person and 10 or 15 computers. But we'll worse a coals and and Audi, all the companies. They're making the same profits, if not more.

David John Clark: 29:16

So that money, those profits are those businesses as going into the coffers of richer people, the people who can afford to buy shares. But we're going to get to a point where we've got all these companies making all these profits but they don't have any employees because the computers are doing it and I doing it, good or bad. That's, that's the way we're going. But so I think we need to find a way to share those profits and the benefits of you by. Is it's 10 fault? It gives the people the ability to do what they want to do. You can do the job that you want. If you want to do an actor, then you can become an actor and you know you've got that income there to be able to feed yourself and and feed your family and do the art that you want to do. So I think it's all positives there and I think it's something that needs to be looked at.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 30:04

Absolutely, and I mean you can argue the value of a UBI from a, from a you know, a left socialist point of view, but also from a more conservative point of view. It makes a lot of sense as well because you're cutting out an enormous amount of bureaucracy and red tape. If you give everyone a universal basic income, then the you know the issues that we've seen in the. You know in terms of the. You know the. You know the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the waiting lists to get, you know to talk to century link, the privatization of the retraining organizations. There's a lot of waste and there's a lot of red tape that's going into that infrastructure. That can pretty much be excised if, if we simply give everybody enough and I think we do I think we do have the resources to do that. But if you know, david's going to take a long time before, you know, ideologically, we get to that place.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 31:08

But, you know, we've seen that change happens quickly. And I'm just trying to remember the book that I read. I'm going to Google it. Oh no, I turned off my phone and I don't think I can Google it right now. You'll have to put it in a link. But utopia for realists. Utopia for realists is a wonderful book and I can't remember who wrote it off the top of my head. But she, as he points out, when you go oh it's, it's, it's a utopian idea, it's just it's so idealistic to suggest this would happen. Yeah, well, you know, we didn't think that women would have the right to vote 100 years ago. We, you know things can change enormously quickly. We've seen with job people, we've seen with Black Lives Matter, we've seen with me to how fast things can change when we have a crisis, and we're in a crisis right now. So we're we're getting really good at change.

David John Clark: 31:58

So I'm author is Rudger.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 32:02

Thank you. It's a great book. I highly recommend it.

David John Clark: 32:06

That's awesome, certainly something that I'm very interested in and I'm going to be following it up.

David John Clark: 32:10

I've joined a I think there's a university in Sydney that's doing UBI. I just see so many benefits of it and you alluded to a bit there is we can change the whole tax system to you get your, you get your basic income and anything you earn above that. We just tax it a standard 30%. You know, we don't have to have enforcement, we don't have to have compliance, your tax offices, the cost of that would be so brought down and everyone would be paying their fair share. If you go out and you're and I believe in capitalism, I believe in working for your money if you're making $100 million a year, then fine, but pay 30% tax on it. And then the rest of us, the people who can't do that, or you know, the ones that have to stay home and look after the parents, or the actors and teachers, etc. They can all have that basic, that basic cost of living, covered and everything above. That's a positive. So certainly something to look into and hopefully, who knows what the future will bring.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 33:58

So yeah, gotta get the word out there and then you vote. That's how we make the difference, definitely so.

David John Clark: 34:05

So also in your role as a me. I was reading it. You were involved in a conference on sexual harassment and bullying in the industry just back in 2018. Can you tell me a bit about that? It's five years later. Has it changed? Because we all know what came out of America with certain cast production guys I won't mention names, let's not get too political but it's been an issue. I mean, it's not just acting, of course, it's in. It's just it's what life has been. How is it changed? Is it changed enough or is it still changing?

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 34:40

Yeah, you're right. I mean, again, that's another great example of how change happened in our industry. But that really just sort of, because we are the industry of communicators. It lifted the lid on an issue that's pervasive and we're seeing it in sports right now. It's unbelievable what we're seeing with the Spanish coach, whatnot, and how just you know how casual still sexual harassment is and how there is pushback. So like no, in short, no, things haven't completely changed, but in our industry there are some really exciting initiatives that have well, we're already in the process of happening before me too but certainly have been brought to the forefront as a result of that movement we now have. So Equity has developed the intimacy guidelines for producers, both for screen and for theater, and this is also something you know we're negotiating right now with the PCA to ensure that those guidelines are acknowledged, and that's a you know, that's a very comprehensive list that was created by our members in the industry about the expectations around the proper choreography and maintenance of intimate scenes in theater and film.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 36:05

And intimacy is not just about sex. You know, intimacy can also be any sort of intimate touch between a parent and a child, or an elder and a young person in a scene. So we have those guidelines in place and that's been that's sort of changed. The industry Equity also funded a number of scholarships so that we could have intimacy choreographers and directors in each state in Australia and I know for a fact that our, so our South Australian president, ruth Fallon, is one of those recipients of that scholarship and she does not stop working, she's unbelievably busy. So it's exciting to see how the industry has responded enthusiastically.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 36:53

And you know, and it's also interesting to see you know in my, you know, working in the education sphere how the next generation of artists are so cognizant of these issues and are becoming really well versed in these issues. So you know we have well-being practices in place at Flinders that we implement from you know from day one about consent and and touch and, and you know finding language to be able to identify the difference, I guess, between what is uncomfortable and unsafe, and that's a really important distinction Because of course we have to be able to go to uncomfortable places. That's part of our job as, as storytellers is to is to talk about the difficult things in life and the whole complex experience of being human, but you never want to put an artist, director or performer in a position of feeling unsafe, and so that's really what the principles are there for.

David John Clark: 37:52

And I think it's also about having that ability and that confidence to be able to stand up and say, hey, I don't feel comfortable or I don't think what I'm seeing is right, to being able to say stop filming, I need to talk to someone. And that's one of the biggest things is people never standing up for for other actors or other people because they just didn't feel comfortable or I have the confidence to do so. So I think that's fantastic. One thing that I would like to ask you now, as a union member myself, I can go to my union, I can ring you, I can ring the union up in Melbourne and say, hey, I've got this problem.

David John Clark: 38:29

I've had a lot of actors reach out who are just going on student films or indie films. So they're not productions that are paid for, they're not covered by regulations and the MEA awards, etc. What can actors do when they don't think that the right thing's happening, especially in the relation to intimacy, and that I had one person discuss to me about. She was concerned about what a what was happening on the film that she was auditioning for. So how can they reach out if they're not in the union for one thing? What scopes, what avenues? Do they have to protect themselves?

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 39:07

Right, well, yeah, yeah, I mean this is an important thing. If it's a non union contract, the union is limited in what they can actually do. So we, as performers, have an opportunity as union members, to be able to access the resources and information that the union has. So if that person was a union member, they have access to the intimacy guidelines and I would say, being educated is the first step. Then you have the you know and you have the opportunity to be able to provide those to that producer and say, no, this is this is the practice, this is industry standard, this is the expectation, and I'm not going to accept anything less, frankly. So I mean, ultimately it does boil down to actors being confident enough to say no, being confident enough to say I'm going to walk away, because if we all chip away at those rights, then how, how do we ever have enough collective power to be able to defend those rights?

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 40:14

So, yeah, ultimately it's a tough call. I know we all love to perform and we will do anything to be able to do it, but that's where they get you.

David John Clark: 40:24

And the guidelines are all free on the internet you can find them.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 40:27

That's right. They are freely available on the internet.

David John Clark: 40:30

I put something on my on the Facebook Adelaide, Actors and Extras, that films were to have if there was any intimacy involved, they would have to have an intimacy coordinate. And someone rightly reached out and said oh hang on, how can we afford that? If it's a student film, I said, or an indie film, I said I understand that, but you need to be able to show that you followed the guidelines, which is a simple printout from the internet, and and just make sure that people are covered and that actors have that ability to stand up and say I don't want to do that, let's find another way to film the same scene. That's all that matters, isn't it?

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 41:01

That's right and, look, I understand. Of course, hiring an intimacy choreographer or director is is an investment. That's no, there's no question about that. And an intimacy director's job is more than just being in the room and watching and being a chaperone. I mean, in film, they're involved in a lot of liaison in terms of contracts. There's other levels that they're they're actually working with, which which I can you know, of course, would be prohibitive for a student film or not practical for a student film.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 41:32

However, there there are other organizations and avenues just to think about these basic ideas about consent, and one of those that I would recommend is an organization called theatrical intimacy education, and that's an American based organization and they conduct online classes that are pretty reasonable, because their philosophy really is that, ultimately, we all have a right to understand these principles and should be able to apply these principles. And there's some, you know there's really some core, fundamental stuff about boundaries and consent and some, some really useful, you know, techniques that they teach in their courses, and also there's a book that they offer that's that's a fantastic book, just about some principles about how you can choreograph, you know, working as a, as a non specialist, or how you can work with two actors working together with different techniques and just a different language about how to approach that, and so that's something that we really draw on with, you know, at an education level as well.

David John Clark: 42:36

I love it. I love it. And now you know my podcast is directed a lot of actors who aren't working professionally or in paid roles, so it's certainly something to think about when you're in your independent new student films that there's our avenues to reach out. If you're feeling uncomfortable, you just even have a question. So thank you very much for that, Tiffany. Yeah, Now is it correct, Are you Dr Tiffany Lyndall- Knight?

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 43:00

I am. I am a doctor, Dr. of Theatre.

David John Clark: 43:04

Theatre. So you did a PhD at Flinders Drama, I believe, and that's where you're actually teaching now. Is that correct?

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 43:11

That's right. That's right I am. I finished my, so I did practice led research and I completed my PhD in 2018. I was awarded my degree, so yeah.

David John Clark: 43:24

Now, a lot of your research I read that into acting, so just to bring it back to acting is you've researched into how actors can develop engaged, authentic relationship with their audiences? That's one of the biggest things you're looked into. Is this a natural ability for actors or is it something that can be taught or developed with experience?

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 43:47

I think it can be taught. Yeah, so my PhD was, so I did a like. I said I was a practice lead research, so that means that I created a work, or I was involved in the creation of an artistic piece, and then I wrote about it as part of my exegesis. And the piece that I was investigating was a one-person show that I performed called 19 Weeks by Adelaide Playwright Emily Steele, and so that piece was my tagline, which sounds a bit facetious but it says what it is, which is it was a show about abortion that was performed in a pool. So Emily wrote this piece based on her lived experience of having a late term abortion after she had a diagnosis of a fetal abnormality, and she felt very strongly that she needed to tell the story, because there were no stories out there and, as a playwright who believes deeply in telling stories about women's complex, complex experiences, she had to put her money where her mouth was, and so she didn't pull her punches and she used her name. But I played her and we did it in a pool because people you know she and the director at the time were concerned that that would be so confronting. We needed to find a way in to encourage people to come for a different reason, and so people put their feet in the water with me as I was performing. So they were literally immersed in that story with me and it was a really unbelievable experience because I could see them, I could look right into their eyes and they could see me, you know, pretty much virtually naked. So it was a very vulnerable experience on both sides and they became my scene partners really as a one person show. I had to, you know, look right into their eyes and tell them this story, and how they responded really did affect my performance. So, yeah, so the, so the techniques, I guess I to answer your question about can you learn this? I, I train people in Meisner's techniques.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 45:58

So Sanford Meisner has really become quite popular in the last 10 or 15 years. I've been teaching it for quite a while now, as studied those techniques when I was at theater school, you know, in the in the 90s. But he really focuses on a whole series of scaffolded exercises that encourage the actor to place all their focus, all their attention, on the other person and doesn't end and respond in a very, you know, mindful and present way to exactly what they're giving you. And yeah, I think it's, I think it really does work.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 46:34

It's really beneficial to actors because, you know, so many of us come into the industry going, oh, I want to be seen and I want to be. You know, I want people to see me or I want to disappear into this character. I want the applause, I want the you know, la, la, la la, and that can turn into becoming very self conscious, and so these, these techniques are really useful because it's a constant reminder that's what's really important is the other person, and we respond to their behavior. And so that was exactly what I did in that show.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 47:08

Just the audience was the other person in that scene and I had to be, you know, completely attuned to their sensitivities. So sometimes, you know, sometimes I would see a woman in the audience who was glaring at me. She did not agree with this decision at all and I had to really, you know, defend myself or explain the choice. Sometimes I had people sobbing uncontrollably and I had to really console them and reassure them that it was going to be okay. So it makes it a really it was a really really lively communion between the audience.

David John Clark: 47:46

Yeah, the learning outcomes from that must have been amazing, just for your research, but also as an actor, to have that response, because we all, we all do everything in front of a camera. So we're doing our audition with the blankness of a camera. There, or even on set, is cameras and lights and it's not. It doesn't have that realism, is it? And is that where I find? I was told last year that a lot of my auditions weren't standing out. Now, that's about as much of the advice I got. So standing out in what way? I don't stand out. My acting was no good. It was hard to tell. But I think that is exactly what we're talking about. Is that finding that, that being able to reach your audience, whether it's in an intimate environment like yours or just down the barrel of the camera, and knowing that 10 weeks later it'll be on the big screen somewhere? So how do you reach that person sitting in that dark and cinema that you may never meet in real life?

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 48:46

Yeah, yeah, well, you know that's, yeah I. I think that Meisner is particularly useful for for screen work. For that reason, because it really for a couple of reasons. One's one because, as you say it's so, it can be so distracting and also intimidating to be on set where there's, you know, there's a crew guy who's checking his phone or people wandering around, or in the audition, the producer is, you know, eating sushi while you're trying to do your piece and it's you get very distracted by that.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 49:16

So by crafting an imagined other, I think, and finding all the details in advance in your, in your preparation of who that person might be and what your relationship might with them might be, or even, you know, rehearsing that with the other person and putting all that focus on really forcing yourself to listen to them, means that you're you're, you're tuning the instrument to be really available and and flexible when you get into that really unnatural environment. And you know, and if you have the good fortune of actually having a reader when you go into your audition, it means that you are used to then playing off of what they give you, as opposed to what you sort of locked up and prepared in advance. And it's also really useful, then, because it allows you to be receptive to the idea of being fresh from take to take.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 50:06

You know if you're, you know if you're shooting. You know all day long and you're doing you know. The reality is now we get three takes because deadlines are so tight. But you know if you have to do it 15 times, you are reminded of the fact that it's not about what you invented before or thought about earlier, that you've got to sort of summon again, but really you've got to be available to the present moment and be alert and alive to whatever subtle nuances that other person is giving you, and that's what you're being fueled by and responding to. So it's a really exciting sort of mindful way of acting.

David John Clark: 50:38

I guess Okay, and that sort of leads into the question of as a lecturer at the university, so you teach parts or component to the three year Flinders drama degree. Do you believe that actors need that formal training? My son's in year 12 at the moment, so he's just applying for university and he wants to be an actor. But we're trying to look at the balance of does he go and do the three year acting degree or does he go and do a degree of his plan B, so to speak? So he's very into filmmaking as well. So he's doing a vet course at the moment of filmmaking. So I think we're leaning towards doing a degree for filmmaking so he can get a job and then still get some acting training behind. I think he's looking at the UCI, the undergraduate certificate of acting at Flinders. But what's your thought on formal training for actors, whether they're coming out of year 12 or the light bloomers like myself in our fifties?

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 51:37

Yeah, oh well, first I hope he comes and does the undergraduate certificate, because I teach that, so that would be really fun to meet him. But look, I think that we always hear stories of people who go into the industry without any training. Mitchell Butel, who's our artistic director of state theater company, is not formally trained, but he did an enormous amount of theater through other avenues and I think that I think that we all choose our own path. But what I feel is really invaluable about training is not only that you're going to be exposed to a whole bunch of different techniques and practitioners and ideas, but you're also going to make contacts and you're going to build collaborative networks that are going to carry you and sustain you through an entire career. So the Bachelor of Performance at Flinders, which is going to be launched next year so we've got the Bachelor of Performance in Acting and Directing, and then the Theatre Maker degree, which your son might be interested in, because the undergraduate certificate is sort of woven into that. That course is teaching you those core acting principles or directing principles that you would get in a conservatory environment, but it's also giving you the opportunity to do wider electives within a wider university environment and I think that's a particularly interesting and exciting model. That three years of just being in a conservatoire doing your acting and your voice and your movement is a pretty narrow strand and for some people, going very, very deep in that is what they want and that's fantastic.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 53:26

But I think that the reality of the industry that we live in and we work in is that no one is going to be a full-time actor all the time.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 53:37

It's an incredibly small group of people who do that and you need which has always been the way, but even more so now particularly if you're based in a regional city and so having the opportunity to build your skills in creating your own work, in becoming an entrepreneur and becoming a business person and looking at the industry as a whole is crucial for longevity and for sustainability.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 54:06

So I would say, in terms of your son, like how wonderful that he's getting this lived experience of working in screen and investigating screen from the perspective of production side. All those skills will feed into what he wants to do ultimately. But life is very long and you know, and I think the best advice I ever got was don't choose a job, choose an industry, because you don't know what that you think you know what that job is to be an actor, to be a director. You have no idea, though, until you actually do it. But if you know you love the industry, that you love the people, you love the making process, you love the creative process, you love the lifestyle, then there's you know there's so many avenues for you within that industry, and then training allows you to meet all those people in all those ways.

David John Clark: 54:56

Awesome, that's awesome advice, and now I'm mindful of the time so I'll start to wind up. I just wanted to ask you now. I know you also train actors in voice and dialect, so two quick questions in this area as we wind up how important is voice training for actors, and can anyone become proficient in an accent? Even tone deaf actors like myself I struggle with? Obviously, as Australian actors, we really need to have an American accent, especially there's so many American shows and films get made out here, so I just struggle to get it. So do you think that it can? It can be taught 100%, is it?

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 55:38

Well, to be honest, I haven't. I'm teaching less and less voice and dialect stuff at the moment. So I I'm not the expert anymore not that I would ever consider myself the expert at any particular time but I would say I've had to work in dialect a fair amount and in terms of so. So that's the you had two questions. So, in terms of voice, voice training I think is essential because it's not just about making it you sound loud enough or beautiful enough. You know, the training that I've explored is really about how to find an imaginative way through sound and through text.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 56:20

And being able to sort of penetrate text in a in a non-intellectual way, past your first sort of pass or your first choice with a piece of text, means that, realistically, you're going to have a way more authentic interpretation and you know that's going to, that's going to make you stand out when everyone they see is. You're finding the. You know, the same sort of general interpretation of the text, your sort of inventive, imaginative exploration through it might mean that you find a connection or an image or an inflection that resonates in an entirely different way. So so in that way I think voice work is really really valuable. Breath the breath component of voice work allows you to connect with the emotions in a way that I think is really useful and makes the actor again really vulnerable. So I think, so I think, that we should all do voice work. Yeah, now dialect work. Can anyone do a dialect? Oh gosh, I don't know. I think you can if you spend the time and you invest the you know, the money in the training and immerse yourself in it.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 57:33

You know, it's like any language. If you go and you drop yourself into that culture and you mimic and you listen, plus look at the sort of tools that you need to be using, the technical tools, I think you will pick it up if you're committed to doing it. But it's, you know, even you know, we have this notion of you know, the Kate Winslet's in the Meryl Streeps being, you know, effortlessly able to, you know, pair it off all these accents. Kate Winslet has a dialect coach with her on every show. She's, she's working on it every morning before she goes on to set, she has the opportunity to go into post production and retake things. So so it's, it's, it's a craft. It's a craft and, like any craft, it needs work Awesome.

David John Clark: 58:20

Yeah, fair enough, I know I'll certainly be sticking to it, that's for sure.

David John Clark: 58:23

I'll get it one day. So all right, tiffany, thank you very much for coming on the show. I've absolutely loved our chats, both on the union side of things and going as deep as the UBI. It's brilliant. I think there's something for all our listeners there to take away. As we wind up, is there any piece of advice that you'd like to give to the struggling actors out there, whether they're young, old or seasoned like myself, to push their journey forwards? What would you, what would you like to tell people?

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 58:56

Bush. Well, choose the industry, not the job, is one that I constantly resonate with. I had an agent of my favorite agent in Vancouver. We used to say keep this mantra going the money is coming, it will not stop. The money is coming, it will not stop. Put it on your wall, just you know, paint your house with it. But I think the best piece of advice I've heard recently was it's from a podcast that I listened to, a Canadian podcast called we Regret to Inform you, and the advice is it's wonderful accounts of so many people who have failed in so many ways, but they just keep on going and the tagline is never, ever, ever, ever give up.

David John Clark: 59:40

Awesome. I love it.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 59:41

I think it's true Never give up.

David John Clark: 59:44

If you love it, keep doing it, and I think my agent have always said if you, if you stop having fun, that's when you need to start looking at something else.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 59:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean it stops being fun. It's a job. No job is fun all the time. But you know, you've got to find, you've got to find those areas and really question, I guess, and question yourself about what your definition of success is. I guess that would be the other thing, like really, what is what is success to you? If it's, and if it's, you know, making a living from it, whatever that living is, then you have to make choices about that. But if it's to be connecting and in growing and sustained and learning, you can do that in a lot of different ways in a lot of different places.

David John Clark: 1:00:27

Now are you, are you still acting? So you're very, very busy with, obviously, teaching at Flinders and with the MEAA. So you still have the goals to be on set and working here in Adelaide or traveling the world, if they offer you anything anywhere else.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 1:00:42

Absolutely. Yep, call me. You can find me at Flinders. I got a couple of days on a TV show coming up here in a couple of months, which is great, but I'm directing more than acting at the moment.

David John Clark: 1:00:52

And I'm really enjoying that Because we've had we've had two connections We've been on a Pine Gap together not not together together, but you've done a voiceover on Pine Gap and I was on Pine Gap and Connor's first appearance on screen was with. It was with me on A Sunburnt Christmas, so that was fun. We were in the scene where you the Christmas dinner.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 1:01:13

Oh, that's right.

David John Clark: 1:01:14

So that was great to to to be involved in your journey together. So, Tiffany, thank you very much. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you on board and, as I like to say, I'll see you on set.

Tiffany Lyndall-Knight: 1:01:28

See you on set, David. Thanks for the opportunity.