Castability with Lauren Neal

S03E08 is with actor and data scientist,  Lauren Neal.

Lauren is the resident data scientist for Castability, an app for actors to audition and learn about their best genre's and archetypes.

Lauren shares her journey of combining her passion for acting with her interest in data science. We discuss the role of data in acting, the concept of archetypes, and how Castability uses data science to help actors improve their skills and understand their strengths and weaknesses. The app allows actors to practice self-taping and receive feedback from real casting directors. It also provides insights and trends based on the data generated by actors' performances.

The conversation explores the role of Castability in guiding actors in their career development and the use of data and AI in the acting industry. It emphasizes the importance of self-growth and understanding one's strengths and weaknesses as an actor.

Takeaways

• Combining data science with acting can provide valuable insights and help actors improve their skills.
• Data can be used to analyze an actor's performance, identify trends, and understand strengths and weaknesses.
• The Castability app allows actors to practice self-taping and receive feedback from real casting directors.
• Archetypes are used in the app to categorize different types of roles and characters.
• Understanding archetypes can help actors approach scenes and auditions with a better understanding of the character's motivations and drive. Castability is a valuable tool for actors to improve their skills and understand their strengths and weaknesses.

Check out the app and everything it offers actors at Castability.
And you can find Lauren on her website WhoIsLaurenNeal

Castability
Castability is a new game changing app that is a must have for every actor.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Chapters

• 2:29 Overview of Castability and Lauren's Background
• 5:13 The Intersection of Data Science and Acting
• 9:26 Using Data to Improve Acting Skills
• 16:55 Explaining the Concept of Castability
• 23:33 The Role of Archetypes in Identifying Strengths and Areas for Improvement
• 42:27 The Potential Impact of AI

Transcript

David John Clark (00:00)
Welcome back everybody to another episode of the Late Bloomer Actor. I am David John Clark, your Late Bloomer Actor. And this is episode eight of season three. Today I talk to actress and data scientist, Lauren Neal. Lauren is the resident data scientist for Castability, our wonderful sponsor for this show. I have mentioned Castability a lot in discussions and I wanted to chat with a member of the Castability team to learn more about the app.

The app being an audition simulator where actors submit scenes and real casting directors then compare your performance against other actors submitting and rank them in some key metrics. This data is then collated and over time you can learn where your strengths and weaknesses are in those metrics.

Such as what is your best and worst archetype and where are you strong and weak in terms of genre. And this is where Lauren shines as we discuss her love of data, how she used her understanding of data science in her own acting analysis before Castability was even a concept. We look into how she was just a natural fit for the Castability app and we will get a great insight into the benefits of being a member of the Castability crew.

Lauren is a SAG -AFTRA actor, director, and writer. And she is currently a Master's of Science degree candidate in the University of Virginia's online data science program, eager to innovate methods by which to marry filmmaking with statistical modeling and machine learning. This is a great chat about understanding yourself as an actor and learning from your data as an actor to progress yourselves forward. So here we go. Enjoy the wonderful Lauren Neal.

David John Clark (01:35)
Welcome everyone to this wonderful episode of The Late Bloomer Actor. Today I'm very excited to be chatting to one of the wonderful team members of our current sponsor, the Castability app.

Lauren Neal coming to us today from Los Angeles. Welcome Lauren.

Lauren (01:48)
Thank you so much for having me. Super excited to be here.

David John Clark (01:50)
It is a pleasure. Thank you very much for coming on. I wanted to chat to someone from Castability as they've been a great supporter of the show for a couple of years now and I've been a user of the app. So I love the benefits that we get from it. So that's what we're here to talk about today as well as who Lauren Neil is as part of the Castability team and an actress out of LA, I believe. Is that correct?

Lauren (02:16)
That is all true. Guilty as charged.

David John Clark (02:19)
As I said, I'm a big fan of Castability, which I believe is still in beta development and listeners will learn a lot about it in this episode. I'll chat about Castability being a supporter of the podcast later, but I'd love to firstly dive into your background, Lauren, as an actor and data scientist for Castability. How did you become a data scientist and how or why did you focus on the data of acting?

Lauren (02:42)
Yeah, great questions, because I know it's kind of a weird combo. It always sort of piques the interest of people who hear that. I think it's a little unexpected. I am a performer at heart. I've always been an artist, but I've always also had a math brain. So as far as I can remember, sort of a couple of years ahead in math classes and things like that. Then I went to college, though, and I didn't touch math or science at all.

I went to a university where you literally have no undergraduate requirements at all. You can take whatever you want from the minute that you get to school. So there was no mandate to take math or science or anything like that. And I didn't. I had completely pushed it away, pushed it aside, thought maybe I would never return to it. And then the pandemic came along. And so the pandemic encouraged me and my wife both to go back to school. But it's also ...

You know, I've been an actor for a long time, but I've always had an interest in other aspects of filmmaking. So I've directed things, I've edited, I've done other roles on set. And I've always, or started to sort of develop this interest in sort of applications of AI and machine learning to filmmaking, which is funny now in retrospect, just because that's sort of all anyone can talk about. But four years ago, this was like a novel thing. Well, it wasn't novel. I mean, people have been in AI research for decades, but,

David John Clark (03:55)
Exactly.

Lauren (04:02)
it felt novel at the time and I felt like anyone that I talked to about sort of what I wanted to do and what I wanted to focus on, mostly image and video data, again, trying to develop maybe some tools to help independent filmmakers increase the production value of their projects. None of my professors at the time really kind of even knew where to guide me. And then, yeah, so.

David John Clark (04:04)
Mm.

Wow.

Lauren (04:28)
I, it's interesting because it does feel like it was a prescient choice, obviously. And it's sort of, yeah, thrust me into this space right now where everyone's talking about data and AI and the arts, oddly.

David John Clark (04:34)
So.

It's interesting, isn't it? Because I've mentioned data science to people and you just sort of get a blank face straight away. So no one really understands it. But I guess it would cover so many different aspects of society in general, not just acting. I can see it being used in the stock market and business and economics is where you would probably lean towards it. So is that what came first?

Your love for data or was it acting first growing up, so to speak? What would you say was your first?

Lauren (05:15)
Sure. Acting 100%. Always. Everything that I do feels like it's sort of funneled toward my passion for that. And that seems to be the most foundational drive and passion that I have within me is for acting. Everything else around it sort of builds a bigger picture of what it means to be an artist or a performer or someone who works in film or consumes films or...

David John Clark (05:17)
Beautiful.

Lauren (05:45)
works in other aspects of film. And it just so happens that there was a shift I think I made a couple years ago when I started to understand that data is not just what we think of in terms of economic stock market, the numbers, the things that are sort of obviously built for data and calculations, statistics, mathematics. Any information?

Any piece of information that has some value is data, right? So the facial expression you're making right now, right? I could ingest that as real -time data, right, to how you're responding to things. Like everything we do, every action we take online or social media, right? All of it, if you are gathering it, collecting it, mining it, could be treated as a data set.

David John Clark (06:14)
Beautiful.

Okay. Do you think that data used in that way can be truth telling?

Lauren (06:43)
100%. It can be truth telling. You can also manipulate it and decide what it means, right? You can ascribe meaning of your own to data sometimes too. So it becomes tricky that way where you have to make sure that, you know, you're interpreting. We like to be on the other end, right? Where we're interpreting data. We look at a chart and we think, okay, what is this telling me?

David John Clark (06:44)
Hmm.

Lauren (07:09)
We think of a little bit less, I think, about the actual data that goes in on the front end, right? It's like if you're trying to find the average home price for the last 10 years, you can look at that chart and sort of read whatever it's telling you. But if they didn't actually ingest all of the home prices in the region, right, that's relevant to your research or what have you, then that's actually completely useless information.

David John Clark (07:36)
Fair enough, fair enough. And then obviously with anything, that data can be manipulated to serve your own purpose as well, isn't it? So we could see the dark side of it. We'll talk about AI a little bit later. So how you take that data in could be used for want of a better word against someone or something, couldn't it?

Lauren (07:54)
Yeah, it definitely could. I think it's what Castability does that is so unique to me is that it's really trying to quantify something that we usually, we can't put into numbers, right? Our acting, our art form. You know, we feel our way through things. There's not a rubric that we hit every time that we know we're gonna book it if we do these five things. But certainly, it's,

one of those things whenever I consult or meet with someone who's using the app, I try to make sure that they understand that's not the final word on your acting either. There's some truth to derive from any data really, but it's not the be all and end all. There might be other sources that you need to pull from to get the full picture.

David John Clark (08:41)
Awesome. And so that's a great segue into the app and acting. So how does data science relate to acting in general? And what's your understanding of Castability and how does your role as a data scientist become a part of Castability?

Lauren (08:56)
It's funny because thinking about data and relationship to an actor's career, I try to suggest that actors start to reframe how they think about their day to day. Basically, sort of what I said before, any action that an actor takes could be considered a part of their data set of all the things that they're pulling in that's going to

ultimately, ideally produce an outcome of a successful actor, whatever that definition of success is for that individual. So if I go to class, I could take a list of every class that I've been to in Los Angeles, count the number of hours, write out the techniques that I've learned, the scenes that I've worked on, you can see very quickly how when we start to actually write all that down, gather and collect all of that, that's your data set.

That's your living record of your acting career, right? Everything that you've done to support, if you took a fencing class, if you went to the gym, all of those things, are really kind of different branches of an actor's sort of vast data set of everything that they're doing to try to produce the outcome that they want. So yeah, every class you've taken, the number of headshots you've taken.

The types of headshots, do you only wear specific outfits when you audition? Are you testing whether or not your headshot with glasses, right, yields more auditions? All of those things, right, are opportunities actually where that's data. That's data. Where you're talking about booking ratios, avail ratios, that's data. So before I even knew Castability existed, I created a...

David John Clark (10:26)
Mmm.

Lauren (10:36)
sort of record a database of all of my auditions that I'd ever been on in LA because I think there was a part of me that just wanted to be able to see the work. We put out so much, we put so much into the universe that we never see a return from as actors that I wanted to say, okay, let me make a list of every audition and see if there's something I can pull from here. Can I?

David John Clark (10:51)
Definitely.

Lauren (11:00)
These auditions didn't give me anything back in the sense that maybe I didn't book this one or this one, I didn't make any money, but can I derive some other meaningful information from what is presented here. I notice every time there's a breakdown that uses these adjectives, I seem to do better. Or these casting directors make up 50 % of my auditions, wild, you know, maybe I should talk to my reps about that. All of those things are opportunities,

for any actor to sort of take a second look at the data that they are producing daily with every action that they take and investigate, you know, how can I exploit this to try to improve, you know, what I want to in my career or get where I want to go.

David John Clark (11:42)
Wow. Wow. That's very interesting. I do a lot of, so I'm a bodybuilder. I have been for years. So I do a lot of spreadsheets and record my, you know, my training, my diet. And I can see the concepts of, I've already do a little bit of data science in that area as well, I suppose. And I can see the, how, how big a gamut you can take that from. So it's wonderful. With cast ability, how did you get involved with them? Because it sounds like you would almost be the backbone of the app.

Lauren (12:03)
Right.

David John Clark (12:11)
So to speak. So did they come to you or were you part of the development of the app and explain how Castability works in the data science area?

Lauren (12:21)
Definitely. So I was an actor who heard about one of the castaway cancer initiatives that Castability was a co -sponsor of several years ago. I heard about Castability that way. And then when they were hiring for someone who both had professional acting experience and data expertise, I thought, this is wild. What am I seeing here? Has any actor, at least in LA knows, it's very hard to find any job posting where it's like, we want...

David John Clark (12:29)
Mmm.

Lauren (12:50)
actors and right, your other random skills. Yeah.

David John Clark (12:52)
Your other skill set. You must have been like, this is written for me. Wow.

Lauren (12:56)
Actually, 100%. I was still in my grad school program, but I right away just started writing a cover letter because I just thought, this is interesting. This is exactly the sort of thing that I enrolled in grad school to try to dig into a little bit more. Again, applications of this super technical scientific thing to an artistic practice. It's really exciting to me. So I connected with Jay, who is the CEO of Castability and

Honestly, I was just so excited by what I saw as the future of this. You mentioned before, Castability is still technically in beta. There are lots of plans to improve the app, a new version of the app coming way, way, down the line. I shouldn't say way, way, way, we'll see. But yes, all of those things are forth, they are out there, everyone, and on their way. And so yeah, I've been really a part of the conversations

to decide how do we start to talk about data. So I wasn't a part of the team when some of the initial metrics were decided upon, things like believability, creativity, but I've been a part of conversations and basically plans, to think about how can we deliver this information to actors. So as you know, there are reports that we send currently. We're working on pulling that data into the app,

so that actors can actually manipulate it themselves and have a dashboard, essentially, that they can customize and use it more tailored to what they want. So again, these are things that have been on the back burner and driving us as we move forward and try to get new users.

David John Clark (14:22)
Beautiful.

Lauren (14:42)
So testing, making sure that what we're even offering is something that actors want to do, know, place to practice, real casting directors looking at them. And then the data piece, I think it's because it's so new and because it's something that anyone really is doing anywhere else, is something that is constantly evolving.

David John Clark (15:00)
Beautiful. And before we dive into the nitty gritty of how the app works, if you were to speak to someone today that has never heard of Castability and the app, how would you explain the concept behind it and what it would benefit them as an actor?

Lauren (15:17)
I think probably the simplest way to explain it first is that this is a place for actors to practice self -taping. To practice, obviously, their acting, but in a self -tape setting, right? That sort of lights up, right? And you go right into the scene, and then we close out on it. Basically everything that happens in between there and there.

David John Clark (15:38)
Which is the backbone of acting today, isn't it? Everything is self -taping.

Lauren (15:42)
It is, it absolutely is. So that's first and foremost. What it is, it's a place for actors to practice that. What's great is that it's not just practice. You can submit your scenes along with a lot of other actors who are participating in the same scene. Real working casting directors are watching these scenes, reviewing them, and basically picking ranking actors based on those metrics,

those proprietary Castability metrics, things that we've deemed important, believability, creativity. And so they basically develop for those actors. It's not like we're scoring actors out of some system that's 100 points, right? We're not saying 100 points is good acting, right? And the closer you get to that, yes, you've hit it, your acting was good today.

David John Clark (16:30)
Mm

Lauren (16:38)
That doesn't really make sense because we all know acting doesn't really work that way.

David John Clark (16:42)
Yeah, you couldn't really rate an actor on that because it's such an artistic endeavor, really, isn't it? How do you rate a painting on a wall out of 10, really, because I mean, it's like anything, but I might look at that and not understand the concepts of that painting and give it a one, whereas you might look at it and have a complete understanding of the depths and everything on it and it's on your forte.

Lauren (16:48)
Right.

Absolutely, absolutely. And that's why it didn't make sense to the team to create any sort of system that defines what makes good acting. And that's also not how the business works. We are always functioning and operating in relationship to other actors. The other actor is the one who booked it over me. I'm not just out there trying to get some role that's just floating in the ether.

David John Clark (17:29)
Mm

Lauren (17:34)
That's just like, once you hit 99 points, you've got it. Right? It's not, that's not how it works. It's like, you might be a 98, but this person might look a little closer to what somebody had in mind. So that might be what, tips them over the edge. So over time, the idea is that, you know, you submit scenes in Castability. Those casting directors rank you in relationship to the other actors who have performed the same scenes. And once you've amassed enough scenes and then those subsequent rankings.

David John Clark (17:37)
You've made it.

Lauren (18:03)
You can start to look at that data that you've generated and identify trends, patterns, insights into where you might be able to improve other types of scenes or archetypes that might be well suited to you that you haven't thought about before. The kind of roles that when you get an audition that's this archetype are just, it's gonna come naturally to you and which ones you might have to work a little bit harder, because it's just not, it doesn't sit in your body the same way.

David John Clark (18:24)
Mm.

It's interesting because I love the term that Castability uses is that the app is an audition simulator, which is exactly what it is. So you mentioned archetypes, which is a big part of the app. How do the archetypes work in the app and how does that work with the science and the data science behind it?

Lauren (18:37)
Hmm.

In data science, you'll hear about parameters. Any sort of data science model, statistical model that someone is building is fed different parameters. And those are essentially like the variables, the guidelines. It's like x squared plus y squared equals whatever, right? The x and the y are those variables that kind of change.

Archetypes for Castability is one of those primary parameters that we're using that we kind of plug in. And then when we give actors all of that data, that's just one, one sort of side of the picture, right? Another side of that picture are the genres and types of scenes that you're working on. So obviously in the industry, if you are auditioning for film, TV,

there's a big difference in the types of sides that you'll receive. If it's multi -cam, if it's an indie film, if it's a procedural drama. And so essentially, the archetypes work in tandem with the genres. So we have genres, those are types of scenes. Archetypes are types of people, types of characters. Types of roles, essentially.

And so I think for actors, we have to think a lot about type and obviously we're trying to break stereotypes. So I think it's important to sort of distinguish between stereotypes, which has a negative connotation and archetypes. You've heard a lot of people say things like stereotypes come from somewhere, right? There's some innate truth or something that spiraled and yes, maybe took a negative bent at some point and became insulting, but maybe there's a kernel of truth in there somewhere. The archetype

David John Clark (20:23)
Mm

Lauren (20:34)
is really kind of just where that kernel of truth is. The essence of a person, the sort of core of who they are and what drives them and motivates them. Like what kind of person is that? Are they someone who sits on the sidelines and is more easygoing? Are they a leader? Are they a hero character? Are they an antagonistic character? That's what the archetypes are meant to do. It's basically compartmentalizing different types of roles and characters.

So that it's easier for actors to start to say, oh, rebel scenes. I score pretty well there. Interesting. Maybe that's the kind of role that I should be pursuing because it seems to fit me well. Or innocent. Wow. Horrible scores on these. But for some reason, every audition I'm getting is this type. Maybe I need to investigate that. Maybe I need to take a class specifically to target that.

All that long -winded business. Just to say, archetypes, maybe an even better way to describe it is that you've seen these archetypes throughout history and many iterations. There are Jungian archetypes you might have heard of that come from psychology, right? Carl Jung. Those are very similar, actually, to the archetypes that Castability uses.

David John Clark (21:50)
Mm -hmm.

Lauren (21:55)
It's not because we've copied those or, you know, we're trying to steal from Jung and make it our own. It's literally just these are the kind of archetypes that generally appear throughout all types of storytelling and all of history. And so any discussion of character types will have some of these characters or archetypes within it. They're sort of a universal characters that we see play out in media, in life.

David John Clark (22:17)
Mm.

Lauren (22:24)
And that's what that's meant to do is sort of identify and codify what kind of roles those are.

David John Clark (22:31)
I mean, and that's, that's life in general, isn't it? We're all made up of different character types and that's what storytelling is in in a sense. I'm not big on understanding movies and stories, but I understand that there's a certain amount of types of stories that you can have, know, drama and love and war, all that sort of stuff. So in essence, that's what we're doing every day as people and as actors, we're playing those characters. And I love what you were talking about,

Lauren (22:49)
Right.

David John Clark (23:00)
learning where we're strong in that because we think in certain areas, I want to be the leading man or the tough guy, so to speak. But then when you do something like Castability and the data starts to come back, you can be surprised. And I've been very, surprised to get some peaks in the comedic area, which surprised me.

And you, but you don't go in it to you, you'll do the roles where they come up and that's what they're, they're measuring. And you'll just deliver the scene like you do in an audition. And then when that data starts to come back over several scenes of the same nature, it's quite surprising to learn that. And I found that interesting that we can take it for two prongs. Now you can look at the positives of where your strengths are and say, well, I'm going to start focusing on those roles now. Or if you, like you said, you're getting

all these auditions, you know, archetype that you're now failing in, you'll, and you look at the data and go, geez, I suck at drama, but all my auditions are drama, now I can learn how do I, do I just not do those auditions anymore? Or do I go and get some teachings to be a better dramatic actor?

Lauren (24:01)
He he.

Absolutely, you know, I've spoken to actors who have started to apply the same archetypal categorization to the real auditions that they get. So an audition comes from their reps and they read the sides. The first thing they do is think, okay, which archetype or which Castability archetype is this? Just to start to get a handle on how do I approach the scene? Where does this character, where is this character really coming from?

Where is their drive situated? Where is their anger situated? What's historically has motivated them? That sort of thing. I think that sort of archetypal study is used in, like Actors Comedy Studio here in LA uses an archetype thing in their classes. So it's something that you can apply to any scene that comes across your desk for any reason.

David John Clark (25:00)
OK.

That's interesting. And now as a lover of the data yourself, and you said you've started to use it in your own acting, are you allowed to use the app yourself and have access to your own data? Because I think you'd find that very exciting, wouldn't you?

Lauren (25:21)
That's actually fascinating. I haven't actually inquired about the ethical overlap of that. think I just sort of took myself out of commission, you know, just as a...

David John Clark (25:32)
I understand that completely, yeah, because of the nature of how it is with real casting directors of which as a working actor, you'll be submitting for real roles. So I could almost imagine you biting at the bit to sort of have access to that sort of data over time. Of course.

Lauren (25:49)
Right, yeah, it just would be a little funny, right, to see all the Castability employees, like, winning scenes. I'm not sure, so.

David John Clark (25:55)
Ha ha ha.

I understand that. Now, Castability uses their own writers to make their own scenes up. Do you have any involvement in pushing them on how to deliver what scene so it matches that data so it's focused on the archetypes and the metrics that you need?

Lauren (26:18)
Yeah, it's actually interesting because the individual on our team who I would say sort of monitors that more than anyone else is Amanda Doyle, who's our resident casting director at Castability. She's really the one, you know, just making sure that scenes feel like they're of the genre, that they are, you know, the right format, right? That there's nothing untoward, right, in scenes or, you know, those sorts of things.

I have a little bit of a less hand in that helping the writers make that practical leap or step. But there's definitely an effort that the team is making to make sure that that is, that we're not throwing a bunch of comedic scenes in with the drama and, you know, messing folks' data up.

David John Clark (27:06)
Interesting. And with the app, obviously it's worldwide now and you can, you can participate wherever you're from. So I'm an Australian and I participate. Is there any effect of you not being an American, so to speak? Obviously it would be very US centric. A lot of the actors are all US accents. So if I come in and I'm doing my scene as an Australian, unfortunately I haven't tied down the American accent yet.

Would that make any differences to the assessment of that scene and the data that would come back?

Lauren (27:37)
I think so 100%. And I will tell you why. We all have implicit biases and sort of ideas about people and their origins, based on what they look like and based on what they sound like. We would be liars if we said that we don't see or hear or take any of that into account when we first experience another individual.

In fact, I think that that's something that actors have to learn and accept over time is that there is something that we carry with us into any room that we enter. And, sometimes that works for roles, sometimes it's not quite right. And so likewise, with an accent, dialect of any kind, I think it can actually give you a lot of interesting information. It's like, maybe you start trying, you know, your American accent

David John Clark (28:11)
course.

Lauren (28:28)
at some point when you do nail it down and you notice that when you do the same scene with an American accent and Australian one, for some reason, the interpretation of your Australian accent is more dramatic or more comedic. For whatever reason, that could give you as an Australian actor insight into how Americans might perceive an Australian accent. So if you get an audition and it doesn't specify what accent to use, or it says,

David John Clark (28:41)
Mm

Lauren (28:54)
natural accent was fine, whatever. But you know in your experience, submitting scenes and your Australian accent on Castability that for some reason you seem to struggle in more dramatic scenes. And there's some implicit bias maybe that Americans have against that accent. Maybe you elect next time to try, you know, your real audition with an American accent just to see what the outcome is. That's just one example of a way that you could think about

the data that you're getting back. There's something sort of inherently uncomfortable, honestly, about it because we have to say and acknowledge, wow, somebody on the other end might not like my Aussie accent. Like that really sucks. But honestly, that is what the business is. Right. There are people who don't like our nose, our eyelash, our earlobe, whatever it is. And I think the more honest that we can all be as actors about

David John Clark (29:38)
Exactly.

Lauren (29:50)
what people might be responding to that we have to offer the more targeted we can be with our pursuit of roles and work.

David John Clark (30:00)
Yeah, and that's interesting because obviously, when you're learning the American accent, one of the biggest thing is understanding the culture because Americans voice is their culture, it's who they are and very different. Whereas Australians, we tend to sit back, we talk a lot slower, we're not fighting each other to get involved in the conversation. Whereas Americans being around a lot longer, there's a lot more people, so they tend to speak more aggressively.

Lauren (30:08)
Mm.

David John Clark (30:29)
That makes part of the character, doesn't it? And I can see how that would then come through Castability. And it's interesting because I did a post -apocalyptic scene a little while back and I delivered it with my Australian accent and I won that one, which was brilliant. So there is a very good example of where it can work because we're talking a genre, a production that could be non -American for want of a bit of a term.

Lauren (30:55)
Right, international, transnational, multinational. And that, is a way for you to even get insights about where the industry is. Because, if you're winning scenes in sci -fi post -apocalyptic, I know why, right? I'm like, I'm thinking, the last of all these huge shows where it kind of doesn't matter where people are from, right? Either it's all accents from all over or the world has collapsed, right? And so certain countries don't even exist anymore or, you know, whatever it is.

David John Clark (30:59)
Definitely.

Lauren (31:25)
That might tell you, oh wow, I might have a better shot as somebody who has not developed a great American accent yet in these genres. Maybe I should tell my reps, this is kind of where I should focus because they're not gonna demand that I have this American accent tomorrow for this procedural, right? So I think you have to kind of get creative in your use of the data, you know?

There are sort of creative interpretations that you can, when you get used to sort of looking at it and interpreting it, your mind will start to over time, make these leaps better and make those connections.

David John Clark (32:05)
Awesome, awesome. And I just want to go in a second and talk about you as an actress and where you work, et cetera. one of the biggest questions I'd like to ask just for Castability is that, and this comes a lot when people do workshops with casting directors, is that this is an audition simulator. It's for you to learn and grow yourself. But actors can't expect that to be their way into any of the casting directors.

We don't know who they are anyway, but this is all about you learning and growing yourself, isn't it?

Lauren (32:38)
It is, and I can tell you we have incredible casting directors that work for Castability and who are reviewing scenes. It's kind of that same, I have a casting director who has called me in, I don't know, five or six times in the last two years. And I just, all I can think is that they want to cast me in something and are trying because they like me, but they're just waiting for the right thing to come along. You can kind of think about your work on Castability like that.

Casting directors will remember you if you are submitting scenes. But yes, that cannot be the reason why you're using Castability. It really has to be about your self growth, about you and your work and trying to really hone in on your essence as an actor and which archetypes and genres work the best for you. If you go in thinking like the outcome that I want to see is one of these casting directors calling me in for a role.

You know, you probably aren't going to have that outcome. Let's just be honest, right? And so if that's what you're waiting for, then you're going to feel like a failure using the app. Whereas if you're like, I just want to improve one point from this week to next, chances are you're going to feel better about yourself because those are goals you can control.

David John Clark (33:39)
Hmm.

Exactly. And that's the same when you go into a workshop with a casting director or anyone like that, you're there to learn and to walk away as a better actor, not to make that network connection, so to speak, isn't it?

Lauren (34:03)
Yeah, definitely. It's a, it's a, an opportunity to practice.

David John Clark (34:08)
Hmm. All right. Now let's talk about Lauren just quickly before we wind up. You've got over 33 credits in IMDB, including the wonderful series Westworld, which I'm still trying to finish. I have a long list of TV shows that I've tried to catch up on and the joys of working. Where are you on your acting journey and can you give any insights into lessons you've learned on the way that may benefit any actor, whether they're young or late bloomers like myself?

Lauren (34:22)
Ugh, don't we all.

Yeah, I think so. My acting journey has been really fascinating. I've been in Los Angeles for just over 13 years now. And my career is really interesting because most of my work is still independent projects. So I've done a couple of co -stars. I did just book in the last month a recurring co -star on a new show. So I'll be in a couple episodes of a new show later this winter.

David John Clark (35:01)
Awesome.

Lauren (35:02)
But I haven't done a huge long laundry list of guest stars and things like that. A lot of my own acting journey has been really developing a robust relationship with my understanding of myself and where I'm suited and where I won't be suited. Exactly, exactly. And that's again why this app.

David John Clark (35:16)
Nice.

which is what we've just been talking about, isn't it? Through the Castability. That's wonderful.

Lauren (35:30)
this immediately felt like kindred spirit with me. You know, because it's hard when you don't book things and you're trying to figure out what it is. I've always said acting is a bit like falling in love. You might be an incredible human being, but not the right match for this specific individual. And that's kind of actors with every single role. Chances are you're not gonna be the right match for most roles.

David John Clark (35:37)
course.

Yes.

Lauren (35:56)
And so, if you are like me, I have a certain kind of ethnic ambiguity. There's certain things I've accepted about myself long ago that again, what we were talking about, like what you carry with you when you walk into a room that mean that, you know, the roles out there that exists that are really well suited to me, there are fewer of them. And so a lot of that has meant that, you know, I work on my own independent projects. I have a

David John Clark (36:19)
Okay.

Lauren (36:25)
a film that's gonna be on the festival circuit just starting this month. That's an independent production. I'm the lead of that film and sort of the driving force behind that film getting off the ground because I wanted to act in a project, you know? So it's like, it's that, yeah. And that's really the spirit of Castability. That's people saying, I wanna be able to actually do something about my acting. I don't wanna just sit and wait for an audition to come. I wanna work on stuff now.

David John Clark (36:32)
Wow.

Yes, I'll make my own.

Mm.

Hmm.

Fair enough. And you would see this as well when you're doing your auditions, not getting that feedback back from the casting directors. You don't know why you've not got that. And we've already discussed it, that it can be the smallest thing. So you just, your eye color's not right, but you don't get that feedback back. Whereas Castability, you're starting to get that data coming back. So you can, it lifts you a little bit to say, well, no, I don't just suck.

Lauren (37:20)
Right. And you also can watch those other tapes, right, of individuals maybe who won the scene over you. And you might think, oh they're just kind of more naturally suited to this language than I am. These words felt uncomfortable in my mouth and they sound great coming out of this person's, you know, particular personality. And I think that's really valuable too. That's part of why I do keep track in my personal acting career of who books roles that I audition for.

David John Clark (37:21)
Hmm.

Mmm.

Lauren (37:48)
It's not to, you know, envy, you know, look on enviously once the show's on air. Yeah, it's really not that at all. In fact, it's sometimes watching and saying, oh, if that's what they wanted, then I 100 % know why I didn't get that. That's not like me at all. Or that delivery or this like take on it, or that person is completely different than me, right? Energetically, spiritually. And that's helpful.

David John Clark (37:52)
I could have done that better. No, that's good.

Mmm, yeah, that's great.

Lauren (38:15)
I think that that's like a nice solve, Sal really not solve for an actor. a bomb, right? Something that can say it's okay. You know, you didn't get this, but I can see why I didn't get it. And therefore I can be okay with that onto the next one, as opposed to, seeing somebody do a performance and you know that you could actually do it better than them.

David John Clark (38:26)
Yes.

Lauren (38:41)
right? Or something like that. Like that's devastating.

David John Clark (38:45)
Of course. And I love that because I think as actors, we all need to know that we're all going on the same journey and we're all suffering the same ups and downs. And you need to know that it's not all about you in a negative way that you've been seen by the casting director, you've been considered and you just never know where that door is going to lead you later on.

Lauren (39:07)
Definitely. You also don't want to end up on set performing a role that's not really meant for you, that you feel uncomfortable, you don't feel prepared for. You don't feel like you have those skills. You don't feel like you are the best person for that role because then you're going to be questioning yourself. And then if criticism comes when the episode airs, then you are already doubting yourself. And so that's going to get under your skin. So anyway, all that just to say, I think the things that are meant for us will come to us if we are ready when the opportunity presents itself.

David John Clark (39:12)
Not really, definitely.

Awesome. And as we wind up, I did want to just go back quickly. We have talked about AI a little bit. I've seen a wonderful photo of you on Instagram, particularly looking very Sarah Connor type holding a machine gun, but it was for a discussion of AI. What's your thoughts on AI in the acting industry? Is it a good thing, a bad thing or a combination of both, you feel?

Lauren (39:57)
Both always, anyone who tells you otherwise is oversimplifying the issue. There are benefits and there will be negative things and I think that's why Castability users with their sort of beginning foray into data will actually have an advantage over people who are just now hearing about AI and whatnot for the first time. Look, I'm also an independent filmmaker.

David John Clark (39:58)
Beautiful.

Lauren (40:21)
And so having been someone who is responsible for editing a film or finding resources for a film, AI could be really useful for truly independent under -resourced filmmakers who really truly do not have access to certain types of technology to create certain types of films or stories. Do I think that major studios who have Buku Bucks need to be doing that? Not really.

David John Clark (40:35)
Fair enough.

Lauren (40:47)
At the same time though, that we're in this position in the industry right now in part because budgets got too expensive. And now we're in this pullback period where we can't spend $20 million an episode on every single show. So maybe there will be a trade -off at some point where we get more shows or more auditions again because the shows are a little bit less expensive. But that might mean there's, you know, some production costs being cut somewhere somehow.

So it's really a dance. And I think that the more actors know about the subject, the better that they will be and the better that they'll be prepared for what is coming. Because it really is a nuanced discussion. I think there are appropriate use cases for AI and I think there are absolutely inappropriate use cases for AI. And I think every performer is gonna need to decide sort of where that line is for themselves as well.

David John Clark (41:16)
Yes.

Yeah. And a lot of people are saying the worst case scenario. I mean, I did a background job on Mortal Kombat that was filmed here in Adelaide. It was a big fight scene. There was hundreds of extras used in this fight scene to be part of the crowd. Which all those extras were paid, you know, a reasonable amount of money were there for a couple of days each and all, a full day. So that's a lot of money on the budget, whereas they can now use AI and just put in a crowd, so to speak, which I can see the benefits for an independent

producer such as yourself, you couldn't afford to have a crowd scene. If that's pivotal to your story, then being able to use AI and make that would be a good thing. So unfortunately, that's the future going forward. And maybe there won't be as much background work for background actors, unfortunately. It's just the nature of life moving forward, isn't it?

Lauren (42:24)
It is and you know, it's unfortunate because that's experience. I did background work, I think 12 years ago for the first time for a film and you know, learned a lot, kind of watched, saw what different people did on set, which what different roles did. that's a second AD. a third AD. That's new. You know, learning things while observing. And so I think that that that is something that we're going to have to account for.

David John Clark (42:36)
Mmm.

Lauren (42:45)
If we're in a situation where people can't work as background actors as much, how do we get that education then, that onset education? And I think that those are the things that I want us to start thinking about, right? How do we make sure that we still have opportunities to learn how to do this?

David John Clark (42:52)
Yes.

Hmm, it's interesting because myself as a late bloomer, I've got a full -time career, which I'm slowly approaching retirement and I'll be able to do my acting and not have to rely on it. Whereas my son is in his first year of drama, a three -year drama degree now. And it's sort of interesting how is his career as an actor going to go forward? He's got so many years and it's such a changing environment now. It's going to be interesting to see where it goes in the next 10 to 20 years, isn't it?

Lauren (43:29)
It is, I mean, the same that we have an influencer agreement for SAG -AFTRA now and we didn't used to. The thing is, yes, things have always sort of changed and morphed over time to sort of align with where the technology is taking us. So yeah, it's a fascinating time.

David John Clark (43:44)
You've got to work with it. Awesome, Lauren. Finally, as an actor and a data scientist, what would you like to instill in an actor as to how they should move forward in their career? If you had to sit down with a new actor or any actor that asked you, how do I make my career progress?

Lauren (44:01)
is history. It's information, right? So what's really cool about it is that in investigating and kind of looking back through your own data as a way to improve moving forward. Because that's sort of the fundamental rule of all things, we learn from our past. It's a really great way to get to know yourself, too. You know, it's kind of like the first time I ever saw myself

on camera. I had no idea what I was going to look like. I had no idea how the camera would pick up the movements of my eyes. I big eyes. So was like, oh, I don't need to widen them that much. That's too much. So it's cool what we get to do as actors, if you treat it that way as a learning opportunity. Every time I see myself on camera, I feel like I'm learning. like, that's interesting. Like, what kind of vibe is coming off of me right now and why? And/or,

oh, maybe I shouldn't turn that way. Like that's not the best angle for me. All sorts of things like that. And so when you're thinking about, your ranks are like the, the number rankings on Castability for scenes that you've submitted. Yes, that's data. There's all kinds, other kinds of actor data too, that you create on the daily that you can kind of compile, right. And put with your data from Castability and make this sort of massive data set of really interesting stuff that you can learn from.

David John Clark (44:58)
I like

Lauren (45:23)
Whether that's pulling up old self tapes once the show finally airs and comparing, your tape to the performance. We do have a lot more as actors than we think. I know we, again, submit those tapes and never think about them again, but, every actor probably has least a few gigabytes of old tapes that they could go and look at if they wanted.

If they decided they wanted to improve themselves in any way. We have more than we think. We've got our records of auditions. We might not have feedback from those casting directors, but you have your outcomes. You may have what your reps thought. You might have the Castability information that you have about archetypes and what might be suited better.

There's ways that we can have more power and agency. We just might have to dig a little bit more to get there.

David John Clark (46:15)
That's awesome. That's awesome. Thank you very much, Lauren. Thank you for coming on the podcast. I've been blown away by your information into the concepts of understanding archetypes and understanding the data that Castability uses. I look forward to my journey continuing with Castability and seeing where you and your team take the app as it comes out of beta and the improvements that you've already talked about. Everyone that I've spoken to that uses it loves the concept and loves

the results that we get from it as individuals and to be able to push ourselves forward in this wonderful journey that we all chose to follow. So thank you.

Lauren (46:53)
Love that. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a blast.

David John Clark (46:56)
Thank you very much. And as I like to say, maybe I'll see you on set someday.

Lauren (47:02)
That'd be great. Yes, please.

David John Clark (47:04)
Love it. Thank you. Thank you very much.

David John Clark (47:15)
Wow, there you go. Who would have thought that mathematics, AKA data science, could be so interesting, but also so valuable to us as actors? I'm really glad that we had the opportunity to chat with Lauren to discuss the benefits of the Castability app to get a greater insight into how actors can use it to improve themselves. And make sure you check out the Castability app. You can find it in the Apple Store as well as in Google Play for Android users. And check out all the information on how it works online. You can find them at www .castability .actor

a listener of my show, you can also get a discount on your membership by using the promo code, the late bloomer actor when signing up. So jump on board for that one for sure. Thank you for joining me on this wonderful episode. Lauren was just fantastic to speak with and learn from. So I hope you get something out of the discussion as much as I did. Cheers. as always, I'll see you on set.