End Of Season Special 2024 - A Podcasters Roundtable

S03E10 - End Of Season Special - A Podcasters Roundtable, is exactly as it sounds. 12 hosts of my favourite podcasts from around the world, all collectively talking about podcasting, storytelling and community.

This conversation explores the experiences of actors and the importance of community, storytelling, and mindset in the acting and podcasting industries. The guests share their journeys, emphasizing the value of resilience and the power of connecting with others in the creative field. They discuss how storytelling is central to both acting and podcasting, and how building a supportive community can help actors navigate the challenges of their careers. In this engaging conversation, various guests share their experiences and insights about the acting and podcasting industries. They discuss the challenges actors face, the significance of auditions, and how collaboration can enhance the creative process. The dialogue emphasizes resilience, creativity, and the evolving landscape of the entertainment industry, particularly in the context of AI and technology.

Guests In Order of Appearance:

James Cridland - Podnews Weekly
Sam Sethi - Podnews Weekly & CEO of TrueFans.fm
Amy Lyndon - Actors! You Are Enough
Brian Patacca - Brian Breaks Character
Janet McMordie - Second Act Actors
Jeff Seymour - The Real Life Actor
DaJuan Johnson - Think Bigger Actors
Alyshia Ochse - That One Audition
Jordan Blair - Buzzsprout & Buzzcast
Anne Alexander-Sieder - Act Bold
Rachel Baker - Don't Be So Dramatic
Emily McKnight - An Actor Survives

Transcript

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David John Clark (00:00)
Hello everyone and welcome to the last episode of season three, my end of year special. You could probably see from my face, I'm a little bit red from, I've had a big day, a big day and you're about to experience this big day. My end of year specials, I have brought back guests from the previous year's episodes to talk about what we've learnt. And this year I've done something really special and I...

reached for the stars and it worked. I have been bringing back this year, hosts of podcasts that I listen to that become part of my journey. And I wanted to bring them back on as well as others that I haven't interviewed yet in one giant podcaster's round table, so to speak, for you to be able to get something from them that I get every day listening to their podcasts. And it was a reach.

I reached out for everyone. I got most of the guests that I asked to come on board. They were all so wonderfully accommodating to my show and we traveled around the world. I have guests from the United Kingdom, Europe, USA, Canada and Australia, of course. And the complexities of the time zones was just the scariest bit. And then the tech that went with it. But today...

We have some wonderful guests. I've gone straight into each guest as I've talked to them about. You will find that there is a common theme amongst most of them. Most of the guests are from actors themselves or teachers of the business side of acting or acting training, as well as some industry podcasts gurus, for want of a better word, to talk about podcasting and how we use this medium to...

educate and meet people and to tell people our journeys and storytelling. And these are all the stories that have come out today. So it's a very, very long episode. I really hope that you can stick with it because every guest is special in their own, pause it, come back to it and finish it up because I truly believe that this is a fantastic experience and everybody, regardless of whether you're an actor or a podcaster or just someone else listening to my show, you will take some

great stuff away from it. So what I'm going to do is I won't have a post show comment today. I think you'll get everything you need from the show. I want to go right quickly into now. I'm going to go through the list of the guests that we had on board. I introduced them quickly and we go straight into it. Their bios and links for everything they offer are in the show notes. So please check that out and please follow them. If you find their podcast interesting, please follow their podcast and listen to it because you're going to take so much away from it. So.

Here we go. I'm going to bring my cheat sheets out and I'll try and go through very quickly because you don't need to listen to me today. We need you to listen to them. So thank you very much. And here we go. We have James Cridland from Podnews Weekly. So straight into the guru. I hope he's okay with me using that. But James is an editor of Podnews as I said, and a radio futurologist.

He has worked in audio since 1989, developing new platforms and technologies in radio and podcasting, including pioneering streaming radio and podcasts at Virgin Radio. He has been involved in shaping platforms like BBC iPlayer and RadioPlayer, advising various global media companies on digital transitions. And he is a wonderful man to chat with, and I'm sure you'll take something out of it. Followed up with his co-host on the...

Podnews weekly, Sam Sethi out of the UK. I've been talking with Sam recently assisting him he is the CEO of True Fans FM, which is a podcast player that is under the podcasting 2.0, which we talk about. So if you don't know what I'm talking about, listen in because it is the future of payment structures, not just in podcasting, but hopefully maybe for actors. And we talk about that as well.

Sam is a tech enthusiast and an award-winning radio presenter himself. He brings his passion for technology and media to his podcast, PodNews Weekly, where he discusses the latest in tech and media with an entertaining and insightful style. Great chat. You will really get something out of that. And then we move on with Amy Lyndon. She is the host of Actors You Are Enough.

Amy is wonderful. She is a celebrity acting coach and the creator of The Lyndon Technique, which has helped over 56 series regulars and many working actors. She's also an award-winning actress and filmmaker herself in her own right. Her podcast, as I said, Actors You Are Enough, focuses on empowering actors to believe in themselves and succeed in the industry.

Then we go on to Brian Patacca and he's the host of Brian Breaks Character. Brian Patacca is the host of Brian Breaks Character, as I said, a podcast that helps creative professionals align with their spiritual purpose and overcome self-doubt. His mission is to bust the myth of the suffering artist and help creatives thrive in their careers. We all need that. And then we go a returning guest, Janet McMordy of Second Act

Actors, another late bloomer, like myself. Dr. Janet McMordy is a sports medicine physician in Canada and actor who began her acting journey during the pandemic. As a second act actor herself, or a late bloomer, her podcast, Second Act Actors, explores the challenges and rewards of starting an acting career later in life. And another returning guest, a friend of mine and mentor, Jeff Seymour, AKA The Real Life Actor.

Jeff Seymour is a veteran actor and acting coach with over four decades of experience. He is the creator of the Real Life Actor Technique, which emphasizes authenticity and realism in acting. Jeff has worked extensively in TV, film and theatre and continues to act and coach around the world. And I always love having a chat with Jeff, so you'll get something out of that. And he has an announcement for three brand new books coming out November, which is big news for us. And that's what I want for Christmas.

So, get together with the family and make sure that's what happens. Thank you. Now next guest is DaJuan Johnson, Think Bigger Actors. DaJuan is a working actor and certified life coach. His podcast, Think Bigger Actors, delves into the mindset required to succeed in the entertainment industry, emphasizing the mental and emotional journey of actors. And he is just a wonderful man to chat with. And he has a voice that is just awesome to listen to, which is why I listen to his show, as well as the information he gives.

Our next guest going on is Alyshia Ochse. She is from the podcast, That One Audition, which says it all. She is an actress, best-selling author and host of That One Audition. I keep repeating myself, but at least you're getting it. Where she interviews actors and industry professionals about their most pivotal audition moments. And they can be wonderful. And she gets some wonderful guests on board and hearing that one audition that is truly memorable for them.

Usually in a positive way, but some negative ones, which are great to listen to. Her podcast reveals valuable insights on perseverance and success in the acting world. And then we go back to an industry guest, Jordan Blair, and she's from my hosting company, Buzzsprout, who provide me all the services that I need for my show to reach the world. And she also co-hosts their podcast, Buzzcast, where they reach out to everyone that's their customers.

as well as anyone else that wants to listen to learn about podcasting and what's changing and what's coming. Jordan Blair is a part of the Buzzsprout podcast team as I said, and co-host of the podcast Buzzcast. So please check that out. She's also a podcaster in her own right where she created Dreamful, a bedtime story podcast and performs as a children's entertainer, helping craft creative experiences for young audiences. And it was wonderful to chat with her. Her team was in the...

not quite in the front line, but they're very, close to the current hurricane. So I'm glad to know that they're all safe and sound as well from that. Moving on, this is reaching out. We stepped into Germany in Europe with Anne Alexander-Sieder, and she's the host of Act Bold. Anne is the host of Act Bold, where she shares insights on building a thriving acting career. Her podcast focuses on giving actors the tools they need to take bold steps in their careers and create lasting success.

So she's also a second actor, late bloomer per se maybe, having been a younger actress and then got married in Germany, having a child and then came back to it and is now returning what she's learned on her journey with her listeners on her podcast. So it's wonderful. We move on to another returning guest, the wonderful Rachel Baker from Don't Be So Dramatic. We're now home in Australia.

Rachel is an actress, model and host of Don't Be So Dramatic, a podcast that explores the different roles in the entertainment industry. She is also a producer and writer with a passion for storytelling across various media. And then lucky last was Emily McKnight. She's currently in Brisbane. She's a Sydney actress and she is the host of An Actor Survives. Emily is an actor, musician and children's entertainer based in Sydney. She hosts

and Actors Survives, where she interviews actors and creatives about their strategies for surviving and thriving in the industry. She is also known for her work as Emily Who?, a children's performer. So there you go, guys. That is what you've got ahead of you. It is absolutely wonderful. There's some strong themes of community and education and being resilient and strong in your journey and understanding technology. So please,

listen and watch or listen or watch depending if you're using YouTube or on podcasts and enjoy the show. It's been an absolute pleasure bringing season three to you. Thank you for being part of my journey. Everyone that's on the show today now is part of my journey. I'm part of their journey and that's what it's all about. So thank you and we'll see you on set. Enjoy.

David John Clark (10:17)
James, thank you very much for joining me on the show. How are you today?

James Cridland - Podnews.net (10:21)
It's a great pleasure. So it's good to be asked. Thank you.

David John Clark (10:25)
And you're coming from Brisbane, but you're not in Brisbane at the moment, is that correct?

James Cridland - Podnews.net (10:29)
No, I'm not in Brisbane, I am in Canada. It's conference time and I'm floating around from conference to conference. And, yes, Ottawa is where I currently am, just for a couple of days. It's an interesting old place. Hasn't changed much since the last time I was here 20 years ago.

David John Clark (10:48)
Wow. Well, I've got friends in Canada at the moment. They've been sending photos of the Aurora Borealis. So hopefully get to see that. You've probably seen it before, but hey, James, the reason why I'm getting everyone together on this episode is that I am an actor and I have my own show, obviously, we're on it at the moment, the Late Bloomer Actor, but I listen to a lot of podcasts myself. Obviously most of them are acting related, but I do have what I call some outliers.

James Cridland - Podnews.net (10:55)
yes.

Very nice.

David John Clark (11:17)
And that is why you are on the show today, because you are the host of Podnews Daily and Podnews Weekly, which I got on board, which is helping me understand the world of podcasts and the technical side and everything. And we're waiting on Sam Sethi, who is your co-host for the weekly show as well. So, but James, you are an editor,

James Cridland - Podnews.net (11:31)
Mm-hmm.

David John Clark (11:40)
of Podnews and you are a journalist from the BBC in the history and now Australian journalist, I believe, and traveling around the world doing what you do. In your experience with the evolution of radio and podcasting, because I know you have a lot of that, you've seen times change, what do you think actors, especially perhaps like late bloomers like myself, can learn from the way audio content creators connect with their audience? Because as actors,

we have a visual medium, like we can see each other now and we have to deliver. But when you come to a podcast or delivering in that way, there's a very different style to connecting with the audience, whether that be in storytelling or in news and journalism. What's your thoughts on that?

James Cridland - Podnews.net (12:23)
Hmm. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, certainly the audio method of communication is really important and actually making sure, you know, I think something like, you know, we're told that yes, visual is important, but the audio is just as important, if not more so. So being able to understand how best to communicate using audio, how you can get your

moods over purely in audio, how you can make people smile and or not smile, so to speak, is, I would guess, particularly useful thing. It's just that, you know, what I like about audio particularly is what you can do with it. What you can do with just pauses and with the tone of your voice and everything else. It's a very important part,

I of any type of communication and that might include acting as well.

David John Clark (13:25)
And do you find that obviously it would be very different between the live medium that we do now as podcast hosts and storytelling per se that's recorded with a script per se?

James Cridland - Podnews.net (13:37)
Yeah, I mean, you know, scripted podcasts, it's always important to know how to deal with a script because actually quite a lot of what you listen to is actually scripted, even if it doesn't sound that way. So that's an important sort of side note to it. But I think, you know, podcasting has so much opportunity in terms of fiction podcasting, you can obviously do an awful lot of acting in those.

And just, you know, how to use the voice correctly is always a good plan.

David John Clark (14:08)
That's awesome. And, just going on a sort of a little bit of a tangent, but with your understanding of podcasts. And now this is where I wanted to chat with Sam. So he's coming from the UK. It's nine thirty at night for him. So maybe struggling to get online. So hopefully we still see him. But you talk a lot about value for value in podcasting and you're aware of it. And for the guests that don't know how that works, it's called streaming SATS.

Which scares the crap out of everyone because as soon as you mentioned Bitcoin, people are out of there. But I love the concept of it because the new podcast players have the ability for you to pay the people that you listen to value for value. So you're choosing what you're giving, et cetera, et cetera. Now, do you see the value of that expanding in an acting world concept or even over anything? Because we live in a world now where,

nobody's getting paid anymore. AI is taking over and the big businesses are making millions and the hard work is art. So do you see that value for value being something that's really going to change the face?

James Cridland - Podnews.net (15:08)
Yeah.

Yeah, mean, think so, you know, value for value, one way of doing value for value, by the way, is streaming stats. But you don't have to use Bitcoin if you don't want to. There are other ways of using the idea. And the idea really is if you get value from what someone does, then give them value back. And that value might be in terms of treasure, in terms of money. It might be in terms of time.

In terms of just, you know, enjoying what that person is producing, or it might be in terms of talent as well. So perhaps you might help that person promote their show, or perhaps you might help that person produce artwork or whatever it might be. And obviously, the money side of that can be going to a website and giving a credit card and, you know, and an amount of money, or it might be

using a little bit more sort of attention based work such as streaming SATS as well. I find it really interesting that we're moving therefore away from an experience where you are asking for a price. When you go into a coffee shop and you say, I'll have a cup of coffee, then there is a fixed price to that coffee shop for making that coffee and it includes the

person's wage, includes the price of the milk and the price of the coffee and all of that kind of stuff. With creative content, there is a different kind of way of costing that out, if you like. And I think it's very interesting to basically turn around to somebody and say, if you're getting value from this, give us some money, but you don't necessarily need to tell them how much. You don't necessarily need to say this is worth $2.

David John Clark (16:46)
Mmm.

James Cridland - Podnews.net (17:00)
Because one person might think it's worth $10 or $20. I think that there's definitely something interesting there in giving somebody what you think it's worth. And I think that that's something that, is relatively unique when you're looking at giving somebody something in return for something that doesn't necessarily have a cost to it, but that you get great value out of. I think it's fascinating to watch.

There are some podcasts that have made a living from, doing this for, from basically asking people to give them value back, there are some podcasts that, get a healthy additional, you know, amount of revenue out of that. But I do think it's a very interesting time in, earning money where you can actually turn around and say, whatever you think this is worth, please share some of that with us.

David John Clark (17:49)
Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Because we, as I mentioned before, we live in a world where the big businesses seem to be making billions and billions of dollars. And if we look at Spotify, for example, they take your monthly fees to use their platform and they are making a killing from it, but the artists, you keep hearing that they don't. Now Sam Sethi's TrueFans platform and some of the other V for V platforms are now paying musicians this value for value. So when you listen to the artists music,

you're streaming these sats or you're making the boost, so you're choosing to give them some money and they are walking away with tenfold the kind of dollars that they're receiving on Spotify being such a big platform. So it's very interesting and it sort of leans a bit towards the need for a universal basic income if you've ever heard of that. As the checkout chick, so to speak, is replaced by a computer, these people no longer have work, but the businesses are still earning the

James Cridland - Podnews.net (18:38)
Mm, mm.

David John Clark (18:48)
income, the money coming through. But if their customers are no longer have jobs, it's going to end up in a bad spot one day, isn't it?

James Cridland - Podnews.net (18:57)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely it is. Absolutely. But I mean, you know, I think it is interesting looking at, mean, you the idea of a universal basic income is something that has been tried by a number of different countries and things. I think, you know, the creative arts is a very difficult, you know, it's a very difficult industry, really, to get a handle on in terms of, you know, it's easier to understand

the price of a cup of coffee, because you can see the, you know, the raw things that are required for that. It's much harder when you start talking about, you know, creative endeavour and how much is that painting worth? And why is that painting worth 10 times or 100 times more than the other painting? You know what I mean? So I think I think from that point of view, that that is all fascinating, you know, really interesting to end up seeing.

David John Clark (19:30)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

James Cridland - Podnews.net (19:51)
What I think where the difference is between the Spotify model and the more direct model is that Spotify of course isn't paying the artists. Spotify pays the record companies and it's up to the record companies how much they share with the artists and what they share with the artists. And I think the interesting thing around doing this on a more direct basis through streaming payments

is that that allows you to say, for example, in the case of the Podnews Weekly Review, which is the long form podcast that I do, I can actually say Sam gets 50 % and I get 50%. But that might be different if I have somebody, for example, who is doing the artwork and I might pay them 10 % and Sam and I 40 % or whatever that might end up being.

So I think that that's the interesting thing. You can actually take an entire layer of payment out of this to basically allow you to go, okay, we don't need any of these management companies anymore. We don't need publishers anymore. We don't need any of this stuff. We can actually go direct. And I think that that's where it gets, you know, really interesting that agents and, you know, and those types of, of people can be, if you want them to be,

cut completely out of the payment completely, which is always an interesting thing to talk to actors about cutting agents out.

David John Clark (21:23)
this.

Yeah, well, especially for the agents. But yeah, it's interesting when you watch a movie and you see the credits right down to the gaffer and there's so many people and you can see the concept of that. If they were all receiving point 00001 % of the income and it was automated through that process that every time someone watched that movie and either paid for the movie directly or paid through value for value because they chose that that would trickle down and you get that payment, so to speak. So James.

James Cridland - Podnews.net (21:36)
Mm.

Hmm.

David John Clark (22:01)
Thank you very much. It was a shame that we didn't get Sam in at the same time with you in the room, but maybe we'll get him as a separate recording. As I said, we've got a big experiment today going across the entire world from the UK, Canada, USA and Australia and one from Europe as well. So I've got to try and squeeze everyone in. Thank you very much. It's absolute pleasure to chat with you. Last thing before we go as with your experience and your knowledge in the podcast arena,

James Cridland - Podnews.net (22:21)
Very good.

David John Clark (22:31)
where do you see podcasts going? We always hear the negative naysay saying podcasts are done and dead for, but I feel like it's positive. What would you say in that area as we finish up?

James Cridland - Podnews.net (22:41)
Now, I think there are a lot of different podcast industries and I think, you know, it's been an interesting time for the really massive podcasters who've been spending an awful lot of money and getting an awful lot of money spent on them. That is a tiny proportion of podcasting as a whole. And I think the podcasting, if you look at the vast majority of podcasting, it's a great future for where we're going.

Being able to really focus on communities of common interest and and reach as many people as you possibly can. I think it's a fantastic time. So, you know, I think the future is very bright and very good.

David John Clark (23:22)
Love it. Thank you very much. And I will put the links for the Podnews Weekly and the Podnews Daily and everything that you do James into the show notes. And I thank you very much for joining us today.

James Cridland - Podnews.net (23:31)
That's very kind of you. Have a great day.

David John Clark (23:34)
You too, thank you.

David John Clark (23:35)
Mr. Sam Sethy, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for coming on.

Sam Sethi (23:38)
I don't know if I call you David or The Late Bloomer Actor, what do I refer to you as?

David John Clark (23:43)
Whichever you want, that's fine. But David's cool. It's good to chat with you on the show. We've been chatting a little bit about True Fans, your podcast player that I use amongst some others as well. So that's fantastic to have you on board. Mate, we had a good chat with James before. So I sort of want to go a little bit to the side, a little bit and look at your background on the technical aspects of things, but someone with a strong tech background.

How do you think embracing new platforms and technologies can benefit actors, especially late bloomers like myself who started later in life?

Sam Sethi (24:20)
I think the role of the new platforms is they're to directly support creators. I think it's hard for people within the podcast community who've got a dedicated small audience to go and find sponsors, to go and find big advertising deals. That's just not working. And so the long tail of podcasters, which is the majority, need another way to find some support,

in monetary terms, not just in thank you very much and here's a thumbs up and a clap and a hands. So I think the technology that's being developed is going to be slow to adopt is what we're seeing, but it will accelerate and when it does, I think people will get it and then the creators like actors will be able to go direct to their fans and earn some crust.

David John Clark (25:10)
Yeah, I love it. And I was talking to James a lot about the value for value system. I did mention, you know, that I pay you guys through your podcast through streaming Sats. And as soon as you mentioned Bitcoin, people panic and my son straight away, Bitcoin, that's the end of the world. But as James correctly pointed out, it's not just about Sats and streaming and Bitcoin payments, which is the payment system at the moment, but it's

the ability to support a show through things like Patreon or subscribing through Buzzsprout, which is my podcast host, isn't it?

Sam Sethi (25:49)
Yeah, I mean, there are multiple ways, you know, one of the tags is called a funding tag. And so you can put a URL link to, as you said, Patreon, Buy Me A Coffee, you can have a link to with Buzzsprout to, you know, a monthly subscription in the fiat currency. So the reason why we are trying to push micro payments are simply because it's programmable money. That's the that's the difference. Okay. Fiat money is a straight 1

tender, you know, if I've got $10, I can only give it to you. There was two of you in the podcast, I can't split it. But with programmable money, which is a key element, and it just happens to be Bitcoin micro payments. And I don't know, in a year's time, it could be, you know, the digital currencies that each country is looking to bring into place. But right now, the mechanism is micro payments. And so yes, it allows us to do clever things with them. It allows us to say, right, I'm to pay David, but I'm also going to pay, you know,

maybe two other people who produce the show with him or maybe someone who's the editor or if it's a band, you know, the guitarist gets paid and the drummer as well as the singer and nobody has to go, right, I'll get a calculator out and work it out. It's all done through the technology.

David John Clark (26:58)
The automation of it, is fantastic. Like you said, say I brought on an artist on my show and played one of their songs where they're in it's an entirety of that. I can say, well, I've just got value from them and my listeners have got value from them. You guys are paying me some value. So, for this episode, 1 % of my earnings will go to that artist for their contribution and then they just get it automated through. So if I get 10 listeners, they get 10

Bitcoins or 10 tokens if we're using tokens, but if I get a thousand listens, they'll get a thousand, wouldn't they? As part of the breakdown.

Sam Sethi (27:32)
Yeah, Exactly. And I think that's the value for value element. And look, we know this is a slow burn, right? As you said, your son's got a, know, oh my God, it says the word Bitcoin on it, run. And that's because people are Sam Bankman Friedman and others who've, you know, muddied those waters. I think, later on, when we start to look at how some of the newer models, I mean, again, this is very, very futuristic, but some of the new models where you get paid to listen to advertising,

where because of micro payments, we can do better metrics. So with your own podcast, right? One of the things you can only do today is download measurements, right? How many downloads did you get David and the advertisers? That's all they do. Yeah. But when somebody says, how many listens did you get and how long did they listen for it? I don't know. That's that's first party data. I haven't got that all of that data. But that data is what we're trying to work on as a replacement for downloads. So

David John Clark (28:14)
And I hate them. Yeah. Yeah.

Sam Sethi (28:30)
listen time and percent completed. And then the other part of it is when you say, actually, you know what? The podcaster gets paid by the advertiser, but why didn't I also split some of that value with my listener? And then the real value comes back to the advertiser, which is if they're streaming sats to the listener and podcaster and you stop listening to their ad, they stop paying you.

So what have you just got? You've got how long I listened to your ad because you're only paying me for the bit that I actually listened. So there's lots you can do with programmable money. And that's what I think people are missing. They're just seeing it as a straight single one transaction. They're not seeing the splits, they're not seeing the wallet switching. They're not seeing the reverse payments. There's a lot that will come from it. And then when people understand it, they'll go, wow, that's cool.

David John Clark (29:18)
Yeah, and there's a big benefit to that from advertising, I suppose, because they're getting data about when are the listeners turning off? Are they listening to the whole ad or are they done halfway through the same as their podcast, which is a big thing for an advertiser, as well as the fact that for the people who listen to the whole advert, well, then they go, well, that person's listened to for a reason, whereas you spend $10,000, $100,000 for an advert in a Super Bowl. I think it's a million dollars to get an advert on the Super Bowl, but for

Sam Sethi (29:45)
Yeah, crazy numbers.

David John Clark (29:47)
for standard TV. You don't know who's watching. You don't know who's caring, but you still have to pay that $1 million fee, don't you?

Sam Sethi (29:55)
You do but look, let's take it back to podcasting. It's the dirty secret of podcasting the Emperor's new clothes. If downloads aren't a listen and actually most metrics don't tell the advertiser. Did anyone actually listen to my ad that was the third ad in that podcast because I don't know how long the person actually listened to the whole podcast. So if you can't tell me (a) it was male or female where they came from and how long they listened to your podcast, you're certainly not going to be able to tell me even if they did, did they listen to my ad?

And that's the problem. We're selling a belief system to advertisers and they're going to get bored. They're going to say, no, this isn't working. I'm going to go somewhere else and put my money. We need to change the model.

David John Clark (30:36)
I like that. then bringing it into, I chatted with James about this as well, but we're in a world now where big business is still making their multi-millions and multi-billions of dollars of profits, but they are starting slowly to replace people with AI. Whether we're talking about the checkout chick at your supermarket, who's now a cash register or on the acting side of things, voiceovers and background artists are being replaced by AI. But...

the people making these things or the people running the businesses are still making the same profits. So we need to find a way to pay people because the end of the day, they are the customers and if they don't have a job, they can't be a customer. So we'll end up in a black hole, won't we? So do you think that this V4V could work in an acting context? So if I watch a movie and then the stats, you can stream all your benefits to all the people who made the movie.

Sam Sethi (31:32)
Totally and again, what we're seeing is with TV money goes from the advertiser to the TV company, but the money is not sent forward to the person watching it or fairly split with the people who creating it. So I think there are models I mean, I went to see Yuval Noah Harari tonight with his new book Nexus and talking about AI. And yes, there will be

people whose jobs are lost, but there will be new jobs created as well. We've seen this time and time again, right? No one has a typing pool. No one has a stenographer, right? These jobs are gone and they're never coming back, but newer jobs will appear. I don't know what they are right now. I think also with Actors going back to that market space, you know, even though you might be able to create a script with an AI, you need to have somebody who's got the intelligence to create the prompts that

David John Clark (32:05)
Fair enough.

Sam Sethi (32:29)
enable the AI to create the scripts. That creative spark, that storyline of a writer still doesn't go. With an actor, you can license your voice. With an AI, we can still tell it hasn't got deep emotion. And there's so much that AI won't give us that humans still do. And I think if we lose that human touch between us, then I think we are in serious problems.

David John Clark (32:55)
Yeah, fair enough. And we had a discussion yesterday about a whole podcast episode that was brought out with two AI voices. And I was absolutely amazed at how real they sounded, even though you could tell they weren't quite real. But if you weren't listening, if you didn't pay attention, you would just think it was Mr. and Mrs. Smith. So to speak, wouldn't you? That's what's Sam, just before we finish up, thank you very much. I wanted, all these

Sam Sethi (33:14)
Exactly.

David John Clark (33:21)
the hosts of podcasts that are brought on, as I said, most of them are acting related, but people like yourself and James talk about podcasting because that's how I'm listening to your show to get more information and learn about how to use this medium. With your background and understanding of the texts of podcasting and in journalism, how do you see this medium being used for storytelling, regardless of whether it's scripted or a news program like Podnews? It's all about still that

reaching your audience through this medium, isn't it?

Sam Sethi (33:53)
From time immemorial, humans have told stories to each other. That is what's connected us. That is what's kept us real. Those stories have in many ways lasted the period of time, right? We still tell the story of Noah's Ark. We still tell the story of Christmas. Those are stories. Podcasting is just a new way of conveying those stories. And in a world of AI, I think we need more podcasting, not less.

I think we need more human connection, not less. Yes, the AI can go off and do the calculus on some crazy spot deal and maybe it will, you know, send a robot to send my drone to deliver something to me, but it will never have emotion. It will never have feeling. It will never have that human connection. And I think podcasting, when you feel it properly done, you know, you can feel people who are

enthused by what they're talking about, then you really enjoy it. And I think that's what we want. You know, it's the scenario is it's very personal. And I think we shouldn't try and AI it just because if all you want, really, if all you want is just fast information, well, fine, great. But that is not what I want. I want I want to have the understanding and maybe a little laugh along the journey as well when I'm listening and

you know, at the end of the day, feel that I've learned something maybe, but at the same time, I've had a laugh as well.

David John Clark (35:25)
And it's about that personal approach that you feel like the host or whoever you're listening to on the other end is talking to you. And that's how we learn as podcasters to deliver that story or that moment, isn't it?

Sam Sethi (35:38)
Indeed.

David John Clark (35:40)
And we're in it to finish up. Thank you. You're coming from the UK and that's what this medium is about, we are now the world is connected. And yes, AI might be replacing certain things, but we have that ability to reach each other no matter where we are in the world, no matter what time that is, as much as juggling the time zone has been fun now. And that's why it's great. So Sam, thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be involved with you for your podcast player, True Fans FM. It's going

Gangbusters, I'd love to see where it's going and being a user of it. So thank you for letting me be involved with that.

Sam Sethi (36:16)
David, thank you so much. And hey, thanks for all the feedback. Keep it coming. We're trying to get the product to where it needs to be. You know, it's early days, but we're going to be two years old in a week's time. That's all we are, two years old.

David John Clark (36:29)
Wow. And two years is nothing. Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you very much, Sam. It's been a pleasure to have you on the show. And I like to say to most of guests, I'll see you on set, but I'll see you on the platforms. Thanks, Sam. It's been awesome. Cheers, mate.

Sam Sethi (36:42)
See you soon my friend, take care.

David John Clark (36:47)
Good morning, Amy. Good morning for me and good afternoon for you. How are you?

Amy Lyndon (36:53)
I'm good, I'm good. I think it's so exciting what you're doing. Like, how'd you come up with this grand idea?

David John Clark (37:01)
I don't know, I tend to find things that sound really, really exciting at first. And then when I put them into plan and I start to panic and scare the crap out of myself. I wanted to, as an actor, I'm an actor and actors are actors. They do their network and they're reaching out and they seek their education from all sorts of mediums. Now I run a podcast myself, obviously, because you are on it, the Late Bloomer Actor, to share information with people that listen to me. But I also listen to

a myriad of other podcasts, mostly acting related and then some outliers that I'm having on the show. I wanted to bring those people in because they are part of my journey as an actor. And Amy, you run a podcast called Actors, You Are Enough, as well as you're a coach and trainer of the Lyndon technique, which is, I've read your bio, has helped over 56 series regulars and many working actors. So,

Your technique has helped so many actors book roles. What's one piece of advice you'd give to any actors, but I'll be selfish and say late blooming actors, who may not have had the time or traditional trajectory, excuse my English there, but want to book roles in a competitive market?

Amy Lyndon (38:17)
Well, first and foremost, I think everybody has to remember why they became an actor to begin with. It's because you want to share your point of view, really, with the world. And I think people forget that. That they get so caught up in techniques and what people tell them that they should be doing, and they forget,

that they are the cherry on top. That, the reason why we go to the movies is to see a particular person because of who they are as a person. And so a really big philosophy of the Lyndon Technique is to learn how to empower yourself with yourself. Understanding what your gift is to the world and what the legacy is that you want to leave and how are you bringing that to your role.

David John Clark (38:56)
Nice.

Amy Lyndon (39:05)
The technique is based in the story because everybody's a storyteller. So if you guys could imagine telling a great story, that has a beginning, middle, and end. But for some reason, a lot of people run lines and it ends up to be a beginning, a beginning, and a beginning. So I basically turn out great storytellers and consider what makes somebody great,

David John Clark (39:20)
Mm.

Amy Lyndon (39:31)
is their understanding of what the writer intended. And so I think people get in and they make choices right away and they'll miss stuff. And that's why the booking ratio of all my people is so high. And it doesn't matter where you've trained. I mean, I've trained people from Juilliard. I've trained people from like Yale School of Drama. They weren't much better than somebody that...

only trained in my technique and never trained anywhere else. It's how you are as a storyteller and do I care about you?

David John Clark (40:00)
Hmm.

Hmm, that's interesting. So how does that come into that we always hear about character and an actor should become the character or and then on the other side of the fence someone says, no, you are the character and you just have to play yourself. Do you see that?

Amy Lyndon (40:20)
It's all semantics. David, semantics. It's all semantics. You read something. If the guy says he hates the woman, don't come up with some backstory that's not written. He hates her. So how is it written? And then ask yourself, where's hate for me? But the character has to come first. If you keep putting yourself before the character, then you do what I like to call Kevin Costnering it.

David John Clark (40:34)
Hmm.

Amy Lyndon (40:48)
That you're just gonna be Kevin Costner, you know? Like, how are you going to be able to morph into so many characters? The way that you'd be able to morph is if you put the character first. So you know, okay, the guy hates this woman. Well, where's hate for me? Okay, guess what?

David John Clark (40:56)
Hmm.

that's wonderful.

Amy Lyndon (41:07)
It needs to be that easy. Everybody makes it so complicated.

David John Clark (41:14)
I like that. And I've been seeing a coach here in Australia that he says to, he said to me, and he said to everyone in our classes, he you can all act. You don't need to go and get any acting classes anymore. It's about your delivery and about what you're, especially in an audition context. So with your background, your training, do you see any difference in the way an actor needs to deliver for an audition as compared to on set or does it not matter?

Amy Lyndon (41:43)
How you book it is not going to be how you shoot it for television. How you book it is always how you shoot it for film.

David John Clark (41:52)
Okay.

Amy Lyndon (41:53)
There's a dynamic and an understanding about television. Television is a corporate medium and so if you're not watching television, you're not going to book television. It's just really understanding genre, tone, and style. And I think a lot of actors don't put that in the... they don't put it in the quotient when they're breaking down their scripts. Because, I mean, I played a prostitute on NCIS. I mean, her name was...

was Goldilocks and I was in like all these scenes but that's not the point. The point is she was the cleanest prostitute ever. Now I come from the theater, okay? Had I looked at prostitute, I would look skanky. I would look really, really skanky because a theater brain will make you do things that a television brain can't relate to.

So had that same prostitute been in The Walking Dead, it would be a different prostitute. So your teacher's right in the sense of it's not about how you act, it's how you approach it. But you have to know you could be a great actor, but not for the show that they're casting. And so if you understand the show and you breathe the show and you also know how the

David John Clark (42:55)
Yes, of course.

Beautiful.

Amy Lyndon (43:16)
dress people for the show.

Like somebody showed me they went out for a show that was very bright and sunny and comedy and he went in for a very flamboyant character and in his self-tape he's wearing all black. And he's like, yeah, but I'm a blah blah blah. They wear black. I go, yeah, but you're on this show and everyone's colorful on the show. There's no way you would book the show. Cause no matter how great an actor you are, if you don't look like

how they cast for their show in the genre that they're working under, you're not gonna get the job.

David John Clark (43:56)
So that comes down to doing your part in the research area of what you're going. So you just can't just go, I'm just an actor, I'll just do it and go. You've got to have that understanding of who's made the show, what's the history of the show, if it's got a history, what's the storytelling about, what's the history of the story, where has it gone from the start to now?

Amy Lyndon (44:15)
Absolutely, absolutely. It's almost a science in a way. Because if you want to book a co-star, you got to know what your batting order is. I mean, you're batting 10th and you're out on the outfield catching balls and sometimes you're on the bench. You're the support team. And so a lot of people, pick up a script and they go, okay, I'm going to do it this way. Well, it might not.

David John Clark (44:25)
Hmm.

Amy Lyndon (44:39)
The way that you decided to do it might pull attention from the story that they're trying to tell for the series regular. It's the series regular is the main person who's supporting their story. But people don't approach it that way.

David John Clark (44:56)
That's beautiful. that's a, it's a good crossover for what I'm trying to do in this special episode is because I've reached out to some of my hosts that run podcasts only, you know, and explain podcasts. There seems to be an overwhelming sense that comes back to that storytelling. It's a, regardless of the medium, you know, it's all about story. So if you're doing a podcast on news related, so I've just had spoken to James Cridland of PodNews.

Every day he's just talking about what's happening in the podcast world, but it all comes down to story, doesn't it? So do you find the medium is any different? As an educator, you would teach people in the room, you teach them on online and you have your own podcast. Do you see those mediums as different or just another method for an actor to learn?

Amy Lyndon (45:43)
Well, you know, I was teaching in the theater for like 25 years and then COVID came and then I went on Zoom and I never went back to the theater and people were like, why Amy, why aren't you teaching in theater? Zoom, everybody's being cast off of Zoom or they're being cast off of the self-tape. People that train with me, they're booking because they know how to work Zoom. They know how to work.

David John Clark (45:51)
the wonderful COVID.

Wow.

Amy Lyndon (46:13)
this six by 19, whatever, not this, because this is different. But 19 by six, okay? And it's like an on-camera class. And so I get to see what they're doing, even if they went like this for a second, you're pulling the casting director away from you. So the little things that you do, and I wouldn't be able to catch that if I was in the theater, so technology for me.

David John Clark (46:15)
Window.

Amy Lyndon (46:43)
has been great because I am teaching people from all over the world. Whereas the theater, I was only teaching LA people or people that would fly in or whatever. I mean, I traveled a lot to different states, but then COVID came and nobody was doing that anymore. It's like an on-camera technique class that I could really see if you're competitive, if you're swinging through and I could see what you're doing in this space.

David John Clark (47:09)
Yes. And I love that because we, I'm in Adelaide, Australia and you, you're in the United States. I may never have met or heard of Amy Lyndon because of that. So it's, wonderful because it now gives actors or anyone that's looking for information that scope to, to spread their wings, so to speak, and, and, and reach out. I love it. Amy, as we finish up, I noticed your shirt there is, I Am Enough. How, how do you, obviously being the name of your podcast.

Is that the big drive of what you want to give to actors? What do you have to say to that statement, so to speak, as we finish up?

Amy Lyndon (47:43)
I'm glad you brought that up because I own this trademark. You guys, you're, you're, whoever are watching, if you, if you go to imenoughcollection.com and put in the promo code ENOUGH20, you get 20 % off of anything on the site. But, this started because I feel that, people want to be in business with people, who are powerful!

David John Clark (47:46)
I love that.

Amy Lyndon (48:09)
And could be a great actor, but not be powerful. It can't be here, you know? And you have to know what your value is. And I've had struggle with that. for the very reason that all of us are broken, that made us go to acting to begin with, because of that brokenness, it's the same thing that's going to get you a big job. But you have to be able to be okay with yourself.

David John Clark (48:16)
Yes.

I love it.

Amy Lyndon (48:39)
And so I started this in 2006 because I just want to remind people that they are enough and that they are a gift.

David John Clark (48:49)
I love that. And we live in a world that is just so hard now and there's so much out there and the resilience of actors needs to be so much stronger to push through.

Amy Lyndon (49:00)
Well, a lot of people want to quit right now because of all the strikes and all the problems and they can't quit. Because, just when you're about to quit is when you're to make it. So you can't quit. I'm sorry. You're never getting out. If you're an actor, you're always an actor.

David John Clark (49:14)
I love it. love it. Thank you very much, Amy. This has been very short and sweet. I love it, but we'll certainly try and get you on for a full episode. It's a pleasure to have you on with everyone that's on today and it's been wonderful. Thank you.

Amy Lyndon (49:27)
Yeah, you guys go to thelydnontechnique.com

David John Clark (49:31)
and I will put all the links for everybody, including the Lyndon Technique in the show notes. So thank you very much. It's been a pleasure.

Amy Lyndon (49:36)
Yeah,

David John Clark (49:39)
Hello, Brian Patacca. Thank you very much for coming on show. It's absolutely wonderful to see you on my screen live. How are you?

Brian Patacca (49:38)
Sure, yeah,

I'm good and I'm really glad to finally be here to be connected with you today.

David John Clark (49:50)
It's fantastic. I was saying to you just before we hit record that I feel like I'm one of those actors that's in that revolving room when they're promoting their movie. I'm just talking to face after face. I've got this all day.

Brian Patacca (50:04)
Wonderful. I mean, are you feeling, you're gonna be really good at it whenever the big films are happening. You'll be ready for your press junkie. You've all the muscles working, yeah.

David John Clark (50:09)
I'm ready to go. I love it. I love it. And I'm reaching out to all my podcast hosts that I listen to and some of them are educators and run their own podcasts and you run a podcast called Brian Breaks Character, which I love that title. And that's what drew me to it the first time I ever found it. So it's a podcast that helps creative professionals align with their spiritual purpose. And my wife will laugh at me over this because I'm just so don't

Brian Patacca (50:24)
Yeah.

David John Clark (50:38)
play in that realm of that spiritualness sort of thing and overcoming the self doubt which is big for all of us. So with your focus on this aligning with your spiritual purpose, how can actors, especially like myself who start later in life, use that mindset to break through self-doubt and create a fulfilling career?

Brian Patacca (50:41)
Got it.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I appreciate the question and I appreciate you having me here today to have this conversation. I just want to make sure if anybody got freaked out about the word spiritual here, I want to make sure this is no dogma, no doctrine, no religion. It's not very different from if you've ever read any self-help book in your life and the...

David John Clark (51:09)
Of course.

Brian Patacca (51:15)
way that I think this helps actors, no matter what stage they're in their career, but particularly on the stage that you're talking about where you're coming back to it or it's later in life and it can feel like the representation is not as many actors as we want to see on TV or on stages in that age range sometimes, right? And what I find is all of the career work, I put that in quotes, is easier when you live with the belief that you are meant to be an actor and there's a period at the end of that sentence.

So suddenly, getting headshots, trying to reach out to an agent, figuring out how to create your reel, editing these things. I don't want to think of, it's not toys because they're not toys that you just play with, but they're a little bit like, well sure, I have to take care of this because I'm an actor. That's the end of the story here. Of course I have to do this. So some of the drama that can be attached to those things or the history that we've heard of like, that headshot looks bad or I don't like the way I look, kind of gets to melt. So gets to be held a little more, I like to think of it as being held more lightly because you're

purpose is held with the most profundity and with the most energy and muscularity. And so that's like, that's a very simple, in one way, this feels like a simple answer, but I think living through it, does take continual tug of war of like, okay, wait, I'm just looking at headshots here. I'm an actor. I'm not meant to be good at taking headshots. I'm actually meant to be good at acting. So let me just take some of the heat off of this. And you know what? I'm really incredibly resourceful. I bet there are some people in my life that I can ask to be another set of eyeballs to be part of this process with me.

Because I want it to be the best that I am. And I know that I'm really close to this. And so I'm to be very invested in how I look instead of what energy I'm, whatever this message is conveying across the screen here. And so I think that when we have that, the...

belief that we're meant to be an actor, we can come back to that resourcefulness. Our resources change, our temperature changes, our blood pressure changes when it comes to interacting with the business. And to me, that's really helpful to someone who's coming later in the business because there may be new technology you have to learn or new styles of headshots or, my gosh, I got to get an agent. Is anybody ever going to care about me? Because whatever age range I've decided is the one that they don't care about. And so to me, it just gives you more power.

David John Clark (53:10)
Mm-hmm.

Brian Patacca (53:20)
it empowers you in a way that says, I'm gonna let these things have less power over the situation so that I can do the work without being distracted.

David John Clark (53:29)
I love that. I love that. So there's a lot of focus there. So you like to teach people more of the business side of acting. Would that be the right way of looking at it?

Brian Patacca (53:38)
Yeah, I would say that that's true because I think like I'm not teaching the craft of acting whatsoever. That being said, because I was an actor for a long time and I made my living as an actor, like, of course, I think the reason why I'm good at talking about the business factors is I have that history so that I understand what it means to put a self tape on or to go into a room with someone and that piece of it, because we can't separate ourselves from our business as an actor. Even a painter has the the let's say the privilege of having their painting on the wall and it is not their same self. Right. Or

David John Clark (54:07)
Yes.

Brian Patacca (54:08)
a ceramicist, it's their ceramics, it's not their same self. So that lack of distance from what you're putting out there and who you are in your own life, I think creates a trap for actors or a particular set of problems for actors where I'm like, let's go in, let's figure that out. That's like the trench that I love to be in. Yeah.

David John Clark (54:28)
Do you see the world of acting as such a tough medium because it's like going into a job interview five times a day and never getting the job so to speak. By focusing on the business side of it, do you think that's a way of actors to get that resilience which I've been talking about today about getting through it without having those, I talk about the troughs all the time, there seems to be so many more troughs than the peaks. So is that a good way to look at it?

Brian Patacca (54:52)
Yeah.

Yeah.

So this is dangerous because actually I would love to be out of business if I'm being honest because I think that an actor should focus on the craft more than anything all the time.

David John Clark (55:03)
I like that.

Okay.

Brian Patacca (55:08)
Your time, energy and money should be spent on doing the painting, doing the acting. The actor should be acting more than anything else that they do. So when they look at the wheel of life or hours in their day, if they're spending most of their time on looking at their computer on the business, they are not aligned with what I would say God given, universe given, Oprah, Buddha given gifts have been given to them, where they are the most aligned with their spiritual purpose, where they're the smartest and most gifted and talented. You've gone to school, you've gone to drama school to learn how to use this instrument all the time and the instrument is dusty unless,

it's an audition and that's a crappy spot to be brushing it off because there's stakes in the game. It's not just I get to play in the sandbox of my creative soul here. There's a job that I want on the other side of this. So I don't think it's a good idea to look to the business for satisfaction or fulfillment ever.

Because it is not reliable. What is reliable is my acting work is good or you know what, I'm having a hard time with this. My teacher keeps saying the same thing over to me again and I don't know why it's coming up now. I've been an actor for 20 years. Why is this one thing now the thing I have to work on? Like how annoying or I could do better with that accent I've been trying to work on. The craft should be your home and when an actor comes to me and they say, I'm all turned up about the business. My first question is not, let's look at your headshots. My first question is when's the last time you acted?

Let's go there first and then we'll be able to do better work as a business when that's more secure. So doesn't mean you have to put your business part on hold, but I need to see that that's happening in tandem.

And there are certain actors that reach a certain, I use the word level is not the right word. So they reach a certain place in their career in themselves where they are not attaching the meaning to auditions and the auditions do still feel like play. But I think most actors are not in that category. Most actors are attaching meaning to every audition that they get or because the auditions are so far and few between, they have significance. We need to be able to play. So do not hang your hat on the business. The business will always disappoint you.

David John Clark (56:35)
Okay.

Brian Patacca (57:03)
Hang your hat on your acting, and then the business gets to be, icing on the cake, I booked a job. I wanted to say very clearly, I know that I'm saying to you, you will not make your living as an actor, and I think it's not fair for most actors to put that, hold that up against themselves. When I was coming up as an actor, it was still kind of positive, possible, let's say. Right now, every actor I know.

David John Clark (57:04)
Gotcha.

Brian Patacca (57:23)
The ones that you will recognize from television have other jobs that also fulfill them. So I just want to like take that myth that you need to make your living for an actor and that means you're an actor. No painter does that. They all have fellowships and scholarships and whatever. Like this is not the way art works, unfortunately. Someday, that's hope. But since that's not the way it is, putting that extra pressure on yourself, I think holds you back instead of propelling you forward.

David John Clark (57:44)
I love that. That's such a different way to look at it because there's so many people pushing us in different directions. And I think it comes down to, I've heard when you no longer love acting, that's the time to get out. And that pretty much, so that let's focus, we need to know the business side of it. We need to know what's there. So have an understanding and make sure that you spend, know, have your Wednesday's my business day, but come back to what the craft is and what we love about it. That's essentially what you're saying is that I love it.

Brian Patacca (57:59)
Yeah.

Yeah. The other way you said that, that's beautiful way to say it. think if you're not loving it, because I think if you start to say, my happiness in acting is decided by the business, you're just on a bad path. Yeah. Yeah.

David John Clark (58:23)
Awesome, awesome. And just quickly before we finish up, because we can talk for hours and that's certainly why we'll come back and we'll do a full episode with you, because I listened to your show and there's just so many gold nuggets, so to speak, that come out every single time.

Brian Patacca (58:38)
Good. Good, we work very hard to make sure that happens, so I appreciate you saying that.

David John Clark (58:44)
I love it. I think it's bringing it down to, because I've been speaking to podcast hosts, most of them are acting related, but some are also about the business side of podcasting. But it comes down, everyone keeps talking about storytelling, how we tell a story. So with your medium as an educator in acting and you use a podcast, how do you use these mediums and how much is the storytelling component

the critical aspect of getting your message across.

Brian Patacca (59:14)
It's interesting you asked me. So one of the guests we had on the podcast is from The Moth, which is like the preeminent storytelling organization in the United States. They're all over the world. The episode is with Kate Tellers in case anyone wants to look it up. She's also one of my dear friends. I've been growing up with her at The Moth forever.

David John Clark (59:27)
Love it.

Brian Patacca (59:28)
And one of the things you kind of set me up here in a beautiful way, so thank you, is when I'm hosting, and I have a guest on, my questions the entire time are, this is how I'm imagining my audience. So those of you listening, this is how I'm imagining you. About to flip it off at any second and stop listening because you're bored.

And so I am just always driving to ask the questions that are going to give my guests the power to be able to give what's valuable to my audience. My audience is not tuning into my podcast to listen to The Moth, which is proper storytelling, right? So the storytelling that I'm getting into is how did you figure that out and how did it then satisfy you as an artist? Like that's the, how did you figure out this piece of the business? And then it became the satisfaction for you as an artist. So within the story is the how to, so mine is a very specific focus in that way, which is like,

said the golden nuggets that you're leaving with, don't like, people will sometimes have me on their podcast and thank goodness you didn't bring me in this way, David, which is they'll say, Brian, let's talk about you. And I'll be like, who cares about me? I'm not Nicole Kidman. I'm not a famous, I'm not a celebrity. What are we talking? No, we're not going to talk about me. Let's talk about my work because my work is why someone's going to listen. That isn't to say like, I don't think I'm a cool person. That's not, but I'm saying like, that's not why I'm on a podcast. Right? And so for me to help a guest show up in a way where each listener is leaving with the golden nuggets and for it to stick.

That's where I think the storytelling comes. Where's the beginning, middle, end? What was it like before? What did you do to get to your after? That's where I think I push into the storytelling is that piece of it. So mine is very mission-driven. Like, how did you get there? Why did you do it? Why was that so important to you? And I think that's part of the reason why my podcast doesn't celebrate only like famous actors or people who have got a tremendous amount of success. Like, I want to know about, great, you got more auditions. Great, you got your first series regular audition. Great, you got your manager and agent.

Let's talk deeply about how you did that because no matter where you are in your career, it's going to go up and down where sometimes you could be at the top of your career and you got to look for a new manager, right? Like that could very easily happen. They decided to become a fisherman. Great. I needed a manager. So this is why I feel very privileged in that,

You said, know, I'll bring it. I'll try to bring it home here. When you said the beginning, I love the name of your podcast, which Brian Breaks Character. And I had a real wrestle with that because maybe you know what that is. Maybe you don't know what that is. You know, people don't know what breaking character means. And I was like, no, that is the name of it because my goal is to break into the character of actors and creative people and how they continue to keep moving it forward. And a lot of people are like, you got the actor of this podcast or the actor of that podcast. Like, no, that needs to be. This is what it is because that's the conversation that I want to have. So thank you for giving me the chance to share about that today.

David John Clark (1:01:43)
Mm.

I love that. Thank you very much. And I know you do have to run. So I think that's brilliant what we've got today. That's fantastic. It goes so well with everyone that I'm talking about and the melding of these cross cultures and diversity of podcast hosts is fantastic. thank you very much. I'll put the links to all your work and your show in the show notes and we will see you for a full episode in 2025.

Brian Patacca (1:02:08)
Great.

Great. Yes.

Thank you so much for having me, David. I'll talk to you soon. Be good. All right. Bye bye. Bye.

David John Clark (1:02:27)
I love your work. Thank you very much.

David John Clark (1:02:31)
And we have Janet McMordie back in the room. It feels like only yesterday that we did an episode together. How are you, Janet?

Janet McMordie (she/her) (1:02:38)
I'm doing great. I'm so happy to be here and so excited for this. Thank you for including me.

David John Clark (1:02:42)
And I was just saying off air before we started recording, I've just been so stressed this morning. feel like one of those actors going from reporter to reporter promoting his movie, but it's working and I love it. it's...

Janet McMordie (she/her) (1:02:54)
Ugh. It's just good practice for when that happens. We're just in training.

David John Clark (1:02:57)
Definitely. it's, you know, I had this, I had this dream, this idea to do this as an end of year special. And then when I tried to put into practice, I started panicking and go, my God, but it's working beautifully. So Janet, thank you very much. It's great to have you back on. I'll put links to your show and our previous show in there for the people that haven't listened to it because that's naughty. They should have, but.

Janet McMordie (she/her) (1:03:16)
Thank

David John Clark (1:03:23)
As a fellow late bloomer in the world, what's one crossover lesson from your journey in medicine that you have to acting that can resonate with those of us starting later in our careers?

Janet McMordie (she/her) (1:03:36)
Hmm. think the biggest thing and I think this is not just maybe specific to medicine but just across the board from for late bloomers second act actors is the fact that and I'm guilty of this I had this weird feeling that because I didn't do quote-unquote acting or a creative career prior to acting that everything that I had done prior was just kind of a waste of time and not that useful but

What you did prior to pursuing a career in acting does not just vanish in a puff of smoke when you make the choice to either switch into a new career or do it simultaneously with your old one. Everything you've already done in your life leading up to this is so important and is so beneficial to your acting career. It gives you, it gives you a character. You're already a character because you've grown, you've lived life, you've experienced things and you've also

experienced other humans in the world and witnessed them. So I think that's one of the big things, very specific to medicine I would say is, I remember an acting coach once told me how lucky I was to be a doctor because I was basically living in a lab where I would just get to witness humanity all the time. In the emergency department, in the operating room, in my clinic, it was not just patients but with my staff, with nurses, with colleagues.

Getting to witness human experiences and how people move and talk and respond is, you know, a beautiful, it's like, feel like I'm like looking at zoo animals being like, ooh, how did you answer that question? Interesting, I wanna see if I can replicate that in a self tape. It's very interesting to be witness to humanity because I think that's what acting is.

David John Clark (1:05:13)
you

And your background in medicine is very similar to my job that we don't talk about, but in that you see, you can see people and families or people and individuals at the worst moment of their lives. And then as an actor, we are trying to portray those moments in a sterile environment sometimes if you're doing an audition or if you're on set where it's not real. And so having that ability to draw on it and to know that

Janet McMordie (she/her) (1:05:35)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

David John Clark (1:05:50)
You know, it always talks about when people act as when they have to cry and they turn it all on, but 99 % of people don't want to cry in public and they fight it. And it's just those little intricacies, isn't it, that you see in the real world.

Janet McMordie (she/her) (1:05:59)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and I think what's really interesting to me was, you you witness it in my career in medicine and your career that must not be named, but I don't know about you, but in my career, we were taught for good and for bad, but I think mainly for bad, like to put up an emotional wall when you're witnessing people at the worst stages of their lives, right? Because if you, the doctor, respond in a way that is very human,

upset with them, empathizing, crying, just devastation, it's hard to maintain that throughout a 30, 40, 50 year career. You'll just burn out. The problem is that you've lost what makes you connect to the other individual. And so this is where I think my acting career has helped my medical career so much because that emotional restraint I'd built up in medicine, I really had to work on tearing down in my acting career. And that bleeded

right into my medical career as well, know, being like, no, no, like, I want to connect with these people across from me as a human. And I think my patients and colleagues appreciate that. But my acting career has also helped me learn how to, I hate to use the word compartmentalize, but to kind of be able to come out of that depths of grief, depths of anger, depths of sadness.

Come out of it and just kind of say, ok, now I need to move on to the next patient. Now I need to move on to the next scene. I think it's a very intricate balance, but it's been really interesting seeing how the two careers have influenced each other positively.

David John Clark (1:07:42)
I love that you've shown it to be a two-way street. We always hear that what we draw from one side of one's life into our acting world, but for that acting to go back into the real world is fantastic. You don't quite hear that often, do you?

Janet McMordie (she/her) (1:07:46)
Hmm.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'm a way better doctor because of my acting, for sure.

David John Clark (1:08:01)
I love it. And I think we talked about it. I asked you the question that if the acting became fantastic and a big role, would you give it up? And you said certain aspects, yes, but not overall because you love it so much.

Janet McMordie (she/her) (1:08:08)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, absolutely. That still holds true today. It changes hourly, but right now, in this moment in time, I'm like, yes, that answer is the same.

David John Clark (1:08:17)
I love that.

I get that. get that. Now Janet, as a podcast host, and I've already talked with a few guests about this, this is a medium that comes across. Now, whether you're doing an interview style show like us, or you're doing a scripted podcast recording, or you're doing a news style program like James Cridland and Sam Sethy that I've spoken to that talk about just the podcasting news, it all boils down to storytelling. And that's what it's come across.

Janet McMordie (she/her) (1:08:51)
Hmm.

David John Clark (1:08:52)
So in your experience with your podcast, how does the storytelling come across in an educational context? How does your listeners, what are they learning because of this delivery system we have?

Janet McMordie (she/her) (1:09:06)
Mm-hmm. I love that. I I the biggest thing is the storytelling obviously doesn't come from me you know, I think I will ask questions that I know usually give me nice stories. But my storytelling the storytelling in my podcast comes from my guests, right? And I'm sure it's the same for you. And I think what my listeners really learn is that they're not alone and that a lot of other people are experiencing similar

David John Clark (1:09:24)
Yes.

Janet McMordie (she/her) (1:09:35)
feelings, about either changing careers or experiencing the same feelings about this entertainment industry can be really frustrating. We can see on social media that it's all heart stars and rainbows and beautiful things. When, I don't know, I feel my podcast, I hope my podcast digs a bit deeper into what's been frustrating, what's been surprising, what's been funny, what's been, what's kept you going in this.

And the stories come from people who are so vulnerable and sharing what they've been through. And I think the podcast medium is so unique in that way in that we feel like we're just sitting on a couch somewhere having a conversation. It's very intimate. And I think that's where I think the best stories can come out. And my gosh, it's such an honor to hear, to be like the host of something like this, to

have people tell their stories and let me broadcast them to my audience because yeah, from what I've heard from listeners, it's just so much of, my gosh, I'm learning so much, not just about the business of acting, but just life in general. And that again, I'm not alone and that there is a community of people.

David John Clark (1:10:54)
I love that. And that's why I'm bringing everyone through here because they, I listen to all these podcasts and they are part of my journey as an actor, which is what I put out with my show and said, now by bringing everyone together, now we have that connection. And I just wanted to show listeners that if you can reach all around the world and hear from people and guests and information, regardless of what it is anywhere now. and, and that's what's fantastic in it, isn't it?

Janet McMordie (she/her) (1:11:03)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm, absolutely, absolutely agree.

David John Clark (1:11:27)
Now, just quickly before we finish up, I don't want to let you go without asking quickly, how did the Olympics go?

Janet McMordie (she/her) (1:11:33)
it was incredible. It was one of those.

David John Clark (1:11:37)
Now, just for context, you went over as a doctor for the Paralympic team for Canada, you?

Janet McMordie (she/her) (1:11:40)
Yes, yes, yeah. Yeah, for Team Canada. Yeah, was, I was in Paris for a month. I don't think I've been in a country other than Canada for longer than a month, ever. You know, it was a long time. I was in, my Paralympic experience was three weeks in Paris, and like living in the Athletes' Village and the games and stuff, and then I got to travel around Paris with my father, which was really exciting for the week after. It was great.

David John Clark (1:12:05)
I love that.

Janet McMordie (she/her) (1:12:08)
But it was wonderful, it was overwhelming, it was busy, it was chaotic, was, I think I got more emotional in that city than I have ever, just because I think, you this was a professional dream of mine come true, but also witnessing athletic dreams of these athletes come true, not just the Canadians, but all over the world. It was really neat. And Paris is just like ridiculous. It's so regal, and you turn a corner and here's more ornate things. You turn a corner, here's more ornate things. It was...

It was an incredible experience, one I will never forget. It was a, yeah, like I said, a dream of mine and I'm so privileged to have been able to do it.

David John Clark (1:12:38)
Beautiful.

And how does something like that affect you when you come home? On an acting perspective, you know, there's something else to draw on now, isn't there?

Janet McMordie (she/her) (1:12:56)
Yeah, and it's funny because while I was there, I'm based in Toronto, Canada, and while I was there was during the Toronto International Film Festival. And that's like Christmas for actors. Like that is the, Canada's Academy Awards. Like we're going crazy. And so I quote unquote missed it, the opportunity. I thought I would feel a bit more FOMO, and I actually didn't because I was just doing something so professionally and personally fulfilling.

David John Clark (1:13:08)
Yes.

Janet McMordie (she/her) (1:13:27)
that I felt really good about what I was doing and really kind of showcasing and being able to be in my other world of medicine was just, you know, there were a lot of cool things that happened in Toronto, but I was like, you know what, I'm doing something that's so important to me and my career in medicine right now. And then of course I come back and I'm like, I wanna be back in Paris where there's baguettes and like, but of course you come back and haven't been auditioning for a month and our industry is kind of,

slowing down here in Canada because winter is coming. But it's just been like, I don't know what it's like down under, but for me, I have four auditions due tomorrow and that's never happened in my life ever. I'm like, what? Panic? So it's just kind of getting back into the swing of things, but I did miss the acting a little bit. I did do one audition while I was in Paris and that was a riot. I was like in the athletes village trying to find somebody to self tape with me.

David John Clark (1:14:11)
Panic, panic.

I love it.

I love it.

That is awesome. Awesome. Well, Janet, thank you very much for being, I know it's been quick, but this is a fantastic thing I'm putting together here. It's absolutely wonderful to see you again. Janet McMordie from Second Act Actors, if you haven't checked out the show. is what you call us, the Sister Act Show, sort of, or they were like-minded. There's some words you used and I can't remember offhand, but.

Janet McMordie (she/her) (1:14:26)
It was great. Yeah.

It really is.

what did I use? Kindred spirits, was that what I used? Yes. Thank you. Thank you for doing this. This is so cool.

David John Clark (1:14:52)
That's it. Yep. Yep. So it's absolutely wonderful to have you on again, Janet. Thank you very much. And it's working. And that's all that matters!

Janet McMordie (she/her) (1:15:02)
Yes, you are awesome. Thank you so much. It's such an honor. All right.

David John Clark (1:15:07)
Thank you very much, Janet. Cheers.

David John Clark (1:15:12)
Good morning, Jeff. How are you? Welcome. Welcome to the show again. I'd say you are, I consider you to be a great friend and a mentor. So I really appreciate you being on, on this special end of year episode, which is your third appearance on my show. I love it. So thank you.

Jeff Seymour (1:15:15)
Thank you. Good to be back.

Thank you, and thanks for the kind words, of course.

David John Clark (1:15:34)
As I said, you've been my mentor on my journey as an actor. As The Real Life Actor approach that you teach online and through your courses and your own podcast, how does your philosophy of acting translate for actors like me who are jumping into the industry later but want to be as authentic as possible on screen?

Jeff Seymour (1:15:57)
Well, okay, sure. The beauty of the real-life actor approach is that it doesn't do any of the old-school stuff, in the sense that we don't gotta go back into time and talk about choices and beats and do a lot of silly exercises and whatnot that I just feel on the whole are basically outdated and useless. And those kinds of things, that kind of going back to square one,

starting putting grownups, know, people who aren't kids out of high school through, you know, all sorts of exercises that are supposedly gonna open up their inner spirit and, you know, cough out an artist or whatever. The fact that I don't have to go through that, think it's something that's a lot more appealing to people that have actually lived life and had to be captains of industry or some other industry have done whatever they've done.

But I don't say that because, hey, here's a shortcut. You won't have to do all that necessary stuff. First of all, I don't think that stuff is necessary. Secondly, the whole approach is about utilizing what we practice every day anyway, and that is communication and emotions and all the stuff that we experience every day. I have found...

that a lot of the older people had come to me after having said, I wanted to do it in high school. And then, you I let it go, I had a family. They actually bring a lot to the table because they have a much better idea of what life really is and what dramas and things are. You know, they're just by nature of living more years, having had more life experiences. I think they have way more to bring to the table.

So it isn't uncommon and it happens. We've seen certain actors, there's not tons of them, but there are who start way later in life and they just are amazing because they have kind of developed into these interesting people. So my approach at its heart, it's not just about getting old people up on their feet, it's of course young people too, is I don't wanna waste my time doing all this kind of stuff. I just wanna talk about...

what is most important to be an actor, how you become an actor and how you break a scene down. And that has more to do with what it's like to break a scene down in life. If you and I were talking about a problem, you were having to work and you said to me, wow, I can't seem to get the supervisor understand this and that, and he keeps giving me short shrift and la la la. And you were gonna go in and talk to him and maybe another superior.

We'd sit around and we'd break the scene down in life. I'd say, why do you think you're right here? And you'd tell me why you think you're right, why the other guy's wrong. I'd say, how are you gonna prove that? So what do you want out of this meeting? And we'd talk about it as we do in life. And then you would go in with that kind of chance and a sense to rehearse with me. We do this in life every day. Everybody's doing it. Right now, somebody's talking to a friend and saying, hey, how am I gonna talk to my neighbor? How am I gonna talk to my boss? How am I gonna talk to my ex-wife, you know?

David John Clark (1:18:52)
Mm.

Jeff Seymour (1:19:00)
And we go through it all and you get prepared, you think you have an idea, you've bounced it off someone, you've been rehearsing the concept, you have a good idea of what you're gonna do, why you're right and the other person's wrong. And then you go into life with that and it takes care of everything. Now let me say right here before somebody says, yeah, well that's real life and this is acting. And I say, okay, except that in real life, it's for keeps. So.

If there was a better way for you to prepare for that meeting with your supervisor or that person with their ex-wife, I guarantee you they would use whatever that is. And if it was about acting, we would do that too. If breaking it into beats or coming up with an action verb I thought would help me, I would do it. But in life we don't, we don't even consider it. It's like, come on, now you're not taking my life seriously. So my whole approach has been about reverse engineering, basically how we approach things in life.

And then using those same standards. So we talk about it like it's a thing. You're whoever you say you are. You're talking to me about your boss. We don't mention the things we don't mention in life. We don't talk about choices and action verbs and beats and things. This is, to me, archaic talk. It's antiquated nonsense. And I think we can get to where we want to go a lot more efficiently, a lot more quickly, and have a much greater effect

on the scene, then all this working it all out with a slide rule and planning things out kind of nonsense, that is what I think old school is. So to wrap it up, I'd say to you, yes, David, I think that this kind of an approach, and it does because I get new older people all the time, it seems to be something they feel really comfortable with. They think, well, I can do that.

That makes sense to me. And then, you know, they get on with it. That's my speech,

David John Clark (1:20:57)
And I love your speeches and it makes so much sense because, you know, and I've talked with the other guests I've had on today and it all comes down to storytelling still. And I remember you talking about if we saw two people on the street having an argument and we would watch it and it was, you know, you're mesmerised by watching it. And if that was a scene in a TV show or a movie or on stage, you want to get that same

Jeff Seymour (1:21:01)
Ha ha!

David John Clark (1:21:28)
You want people in the audience to see the same thing. They like it's real life. And that's where the difference is.

Jeff Seymour (1:21:31)
Yeah, nothing is greater than authentic life. That's what everyone goes for. And when you get close to it or when you nail it, that is always the thing people say is that, I forgot I was watching a movie. I thought it's just, man, I felt so bad when that person died, even though we know they were in Venice at the festival the next week. They're not dead, but they're so compelling with what they're doing. It's so believable. It just seems so real that that stuff usually shakes us, you know.

That's the thing that really gets us. And I think getting there is a lot easier if you don't talk about acting and then be expected to forget the acting part to then try and do the real life part. Let's just cut out the middleman. Let's just not do that stuff. Let's just take for granted this is kind of happening. We all know it's a story we're telling, but for all intents and purposes.

Let's talk about this like we're real people and you have a real problem with that real guy over there and you've got a real situation and let's just deal with it this way. Let's talk about it this way. I don't want to talk about it like we're actors. It's the silliest thing in the world. Why would we talk about the thing we're trying to avoid? Let's not even bring it up. Let's just talk about real stuff.

David John Clark (1:22:41)
Yeah, and I've just talked to Janet McMordy, who's an actress as well as she has her own podcast, The Second Act Actors, and she's a doctor. And it's the same thing we talked about. A doctor doesn't go in there and say, what do I need to do here? My training or anything like that. They just are. And they just do. And that's what we need to translate as actors when we read the script and we learn the lines. Yes, we've got to learn the lines because it's not a real life thing. So it just doesn't happen like we're talking now. But once you've got that all down pat is how

How do we take that script and just make it like it's the first time we've heard it, isn't it? And that's probably the hardest thing for an actor, but when you get it, you've nailed it and it looks brilliant.

Jeff Seymour (1:23:21)
Yeah, and I would say just I always like to give examples, you know, people think, well, that is the rub and that is the rub. I suppose you take the stuff that's preset on the page, then you say it like it's your own story. But an example I always give is

Everyone has stories they tell in life. Something happened when they were a kid, they won an award, something. They have a story. It's an evening. It's a story. They tell it, they retell it, they retell it. And you go through life. Tell, hey, hey, David, tell the story about the thing when you got the fish. And so you tell the story. And if you're an honest person and it actually happened, you repeat the entire story. And if I've heard you do it before, I'd know if you left anything out. from what I can remember,

that's the story. That's it. That's right there. So essentially, there was a bunch of lines, a story. You learned it. OK, well, it happened. But still, these are a bunch of lines. Now you're going to retell all those lines. Now in life, it's never a pickle. In life, it's never a problem, because I'm just going to tell the story. I'm not thinking about acting. I'm not thinking about how I'm going to tell it. I know what the story is. I'm going to tell it to you now. And to me, that is the theory.

Is that once you really understand what you're talking about and why you're talking about it, you know what the deal is. Now I just have these words that I will happen to say, just like if it was a story from my life, they won't force me to do a certain thing with them. No, I know how to tell a story. These words will come out in the order that they're on some page somewhere or the order that they were in my memory from what happened.

And it won't encumber me. And I can tell that story 50 times through my life. And if I get laughs, I will get laughs every time. But I'll never focus on, last time I told it, I kind of went like this when I said that line. And then I went like that, and I got a big laugh. Nobody does that. You just tell the story again. And it's the same thing. And a lot of people be hard pressed to tell you the difference, but it's always fresh. Because you're not thinking of performing it. You're thinking of honestly telling the story again.

David John Clark (1:25:19)
Love it.

Jeff Seymour (1:25:19)
Don't get me started, David. You know I do this all day long. You know, David, I mentioned to you, I have three books that I'm finishing, three new books about the business that are coming out this next month.

David John Clark (1:25:28)
Awesome. And that's a great segue. I wanted to talk about them. the reason I'm getting everyone on this end of year special, because you guys educate actors, you have the medium through the podcast and all books. And so now I wanted to talk to you, everyone that I listened to, because they are part of my journey as an actor now, and that's why they're on the show. So you are a podcaster through your education of actors. How does that

allow you to reach the masses and then you can segue straight into your books as we wind up. Thank you.

Jeff Seymour (1:26:02)
Well, listen, the thing about podcasting obviously is that, you know, I get people from Bahrain to New Zealand, know, Kenya. mean, anywhere you have a computer, you know, and you have bandwidth, you can obviously pick up the podcast. And not a lot of people are doing podcasts about acting and the mechanics of acting. There are shows that...

deal with actors and anecdotal and they have guests and things of mine is purely about the nuts and bolts. So it's kind of out there. So apparently when people look it up, it comes up and then people listen to it. Now I have 168 of them. So that has helped me certainly get a worldwide audience. So in my Zoom classes, for instance, I have people from all around the world and the South and it's just...

David John Clark (1:26:38)
I love it.

Jeff Seymour (1:26:48)
I don't know if a week goes by, don't marvel at how amazing that is to hear this Aussie person speaking to this person in Calgary, who's having a scene with someone in New York or whatever the deal is. I am fascinated by that part of the technology. You know, I mean, having been a teacher now for 44 years, I wrote The Real Life Actor 11 years ago. Stephen Pressfield, who wrote so many books, but certainly The War of Art,

it was a mentor of mine and he had said that, you know, you, you should just write as many books as you can possibly get out there, you know, cause he's written so many. And so I had these three books in mind that I've been wanting to do forever. And I just decided, you know, let me just do them all at once and get them done. So I had three books. One is called Showing Up Like A Pro.

And that is really from when an actor gets the first email saying show up at the set, whatever, blah, blah, blah, to the end of the night when they are signing out after that day's work. Everything in between there, the do's and don'ts, what you must always do, never do, what all the departments mean, how you treat certain people, what to never ask for, what to always ask for, how to deal with tough actors, people that give you a hard time, directors, how do you...

What do you do? The next one is called Directing Talent. And that is a book set up for primarily to try and make directors actor whisperers.

David John Clark (1:28:05)
Awesome.

Jeff Seymour (1:28:17)
Since I've spent my whole life being an actor and also talking to actors and coaxing actors as a teacher and as a director, I certainly also as an actor know the things you never do, always do, when you compliment, when you shouldn't say anything, how you get people emotional. Also, how to choose all your heads of departments because I did have my own TV show for two years. So I know a lot about hiring people and I also know when we made mistakes and why the mistakes were made.

So I go through all the departments and then I talk about everything that can happen on a set. How to deal with all the people, you cinematographer, problem actors, crotchety actors, brand new actors, scared actors, kid actors, you know. And that's that one. And then the third book is called The Real Life Actor Scene Study Workbook. And that's 32 original scenes. And after each scene, I do a blur, kind of a.

a little, a page on how to approach the scene, what to think about. And none of it has to do with, you know, choices and beats or any of those things. It has to do with the story, what's going on and what you should focus on. And then once you've done that, you can go to the back and there'll be yet another level of things to think about, some additional directing you could just try and see how it works for you. And so it's really a workbook. So somebody could get this anywhere in the world and go through 32 scenes.

David John Clark (1:29:20)
Thank

Jeff Seymour (1:29:40)
and see, you know, it's like I'm taking them through it to show you how this approach works and how much more freeing it is. So they're coming out in November on Amazon.

David John Clark (1:29:41)
Love it.

Beautiful. Just in time for Christmas, everyone. That's what I want for Christmas. Please look after me. Jeff, thank you very, very much. It's been awesome to see you and have you back on the show again for this very exciting and very scary interview, especially, but it's, it's working really well. And I've got some great, great people with some great stories and great takes on acting. So thank you.

Jeff Seymour (1:29:53)
That's what I want for Christmas.

thank you so much, David, for thinking of me. And I'm so happy you've had so much success with this thing and you've stuck to it. I know how hard it is to do these things and you got a big full life. So good on you, man. Continued success, all right?

David John Clark (1:30:20)
Beautiful. Thank you, Jeff. I will put a link to your pages and the books in the show notes and we will see you in the new year. Thank you very much. Cheers, Jeff. Bye bye.

Jeff Seymour (1:30:28)
Thank you very much. Bye bye.

David John Clark (1:30:31)
Good morning. DaJuan Johnson from Think Bigger Actors. Thank you for coming on my podcast.

DaJuan Johnson (1:30:36)
Wow. Thank you for having me on your podcast. Is it morning for you?

David John Clark (1:30:39)
It is morning for me. It's 9.48am Friday. We're, we're in the future for you. So if you want the lotto numbers, I'll give them to you after this call. Thank you very much. As I've, I've repeated to each guest that I've had today, I doing this end of year special to bring in all the hosts of podcasts that I listen to because they are part of my journey as an actor. And I wanted to be able to have that to share

DaJuan Johnson (1:30:45)
In the future, in the future. I'll just try my luck. I'll try my luck with Friday. Yeah.

David John Clark (1:31:09)
those people with everyone that listens to my show and to bring everyone together. Because what I get from your show, someone else may never have heard from you and now we get that crossover. So I wanted to ask you.

DaJuan Johnson (1:31:23)
Wait, David, is this like the crossover episode? in like, like when we have like TV, this is like, you know, when like 90210 meets Melrose Place and stuff. This is like a crossover episode.

David John Clark (1:31:33)
I love that. Yes, most definitely, most definitely. I like that. Your podcast emphasises a lot of mindset. So how can someone like me, where I started later in life as an actor on my journey, leverage mindset practices to catch up and thrive in this competitive industry that we all have chosen to work in?

DaJuan Johnson (1:31:37)
Sorry, go ahead. I'm just having so much fun.

Yeah, it's so interesting that you phrase it that way because I think that even within that question is mindset, right? It's like, how can someone who started later in that, that is a mindset reframe thinking that there is a, because I didn't start when I'm 18 or 20 or whatever, that there must be something that I'm missing, right? Instead of shifting that thought on, you know, I am starting at the perfect time.

This is going to be my perfect time for jumping off in this industry, or for becoming successful or my own definition of success, or I started later in life, I missed all that stuff where you know, I had to crash and burn or I could have like, you know, like, like done drugs or whatever, in my 20s or whatever you're like, now I understand stuff, and I'm going to cut those corners. So how can someone use mindset at this age, I think you just like set me up, you teed me up is to make sure that we understand that it's all

mindset right now. And it's really, really important for you. You know, if you started later in this life, it's just like, this is all about reframing. This is like, whenever you hear something, ask yourself this simple question, is this true? How do I know this is true? Starting with, you know, starting later in life? How do know this is a bad thing? How do I know this is anything great? I don't know this is true. What's another way of looking at that? I would love to look at this like I'm starting right where I'm supposed to be. And then what would I like to think and we move forward with that.

David John Clark (1:32:56)
Beautiful.

Mm.

Yes, because a lot of people who do say that, I wish I'd done this when I was younger or whatever, they actually almost use it as an excuse not to do it now. Don't they? And so that's where what you talk about on show is about just taking what you've got when you've got it and making it work today.

DaJuan Johnson (1:33:35)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah. And I would also just add there that I always like to say to my my my community is that your equation is off. It's really interesting that everybody can say, I you know, if I wish I had started later, but that is a plus, equal c, they've missed and part of that equation, the B part of that a plus B equals c is that, okay, great. That's one way of looking at that. What's this way of looking at that?

You know, this way right now, that might be I'm really excited to, you know, start right now. And what I would say here is find examples to, to, to support you starting right now. So for example, Morgan Freeman comes to mind, you know what I mean? Like starting later in life, or like, right, you know, like, that's something, yeah, Morgan Freeman did it. Or, you know, the woman who was on the office who just decided to like, you know, start later in life, you know, after a second career.

David John Clark (1:34:26)
Love Morgan Freeman!

DaJuan Johnson (1:34:37)
Or people who have done that. So what you're doing is instead of looking at all the person who are like, on your news or started when they're 18, then you're like now thinking about, there's a whole new support system or way I can look at this of these people who have started instead of looking the other way.

David John Clark (1:34:52)
That's fantastic. I love it. Hey, what made you start your podcast? Just quickly, what's your background as an actor and how did you decide that, hey, I want to do this show and put it out there and what were your reasons behind wanting to do that?

DaJuan Johnson (1:35:11)
Yeah, you know, I love mindset period. The quick version of that is I when I became a coach back in like 2015 or something like that, I went to get certified as a life coach. I did what's called the Think Bigger Actor Summit.

Where I would bring a lot of people together and we would do these big summits and talks and they would be once a year. And then I just decided that it wasn't enough. You know, I wanted to be able to speak to my tribe a little bit more. And so the natural progression of that was going to be the podcast. I've always loved mindset because I think that's the thing that will keep you in the game

the longest. Everybody thinks it's going to be our craft and our industry. I mean, craft and our acting, but that's not the thing. What I've known from all of my bookings from all of them. Yes, talent has gotten me through the door, but mindset has kept me there. Mindset has kept me in the room on set. And so what I like to do is make sure that I can bring that to actors every single week with people who are showrunners with with directors with other actors so that you can see that yes, it's all about

the other stuff, the craft and all that stuff. But mindset is the through line through all of it.

David John Clark (1:36:21)
And does that help a lot because as actors we all go through and I've already talked about it today and I talk about it consistently on my show, the peaks, which are fantastic, but the troughs, which we all hate and we feel like at times that there's more troughs than the peaks. So how do we use that mindset to be able to navigate those treacherous waters, so to speak?

DaJuan Johnson (1:36:44)
Yeah, you know, I think one of the big things is, again, I'm not like toxic positivity. I'm always about like strategies here. And I think one of the big things to think about is just take the last year we were in this big writer strike is to really stop thinking about it as peaks and valleys, like ups and downs here. And like everything is kind of just like on a this is all amazing. I've been booking some pretty great things these last couple of months. And how though it's felt great, I have to also remember that

keep on an even playing field because there will be spikes and valleys like you're saying. And if we don't think about it as like, no, now I'm not on set, this must suck instead of great. This is part of the industry. This is what we do. And that's all mindset is what I've done. This is all neutral. Everything's neutral until we put our own baggage and our stuff on top of it. And so for me, it's just kind of like, you know, this, this year for a lot have been, has been very intense, but for me, it's just been like, okay, I take

the industry for what it is now. Instead of I'm only happy when I'm booking. I'm only happy when I'm on set. That's how a lot of actors live their life. But if we can shift that mindset to thinking like, understand this is the industry. This is just something I do as an actor. I'm also going to go out there and be an amazing Dad. I'm also going to go out there and be a baseball coach. I'm also going to go out there and be the next inventor of a kind bar. So we're no longer do we have the adage of

if you can do anything else besides acting, you might as well go do that. No, you can go do that. And you can still be a committed actor when it counts. So I hope that answers it for you.

David John Clark (1:38:20)
I love it. No, it's about that balance, isn't it? The balance of life and that goes across to anyone. And I like to say that my show is not just for actors because there are things here for anyone to take away. Now, just as we wind up, DaJuan you were talking before about your tribe and you say the tribe all the time. How important is community or in this case the tribe to us as actors?

Us, me and you as podcasters and bringing everyone together.

DaJuan Johnson (1:38:51)
I don't think anybody has made it in anywhere that I know of in this industry without a support system, without a tribe, as I call it. I think it's so incredibly important to have some people that really get your language, that really understand, that really listen to you, that celebrates those wins you're talking about, that sees that you might be in a little bit of a dip frequency-wise and can help support you or hold you or just sit in community with you. I think it's so incredibly important.

Because a lot of people don't understand this journey we're on they don't understand this journey. So for me the Think Bigger Actor actors tribe Community is so important because I also get to come to that community and get filled up as well Yeah

David John Clark (1:39:36)
I love it. love it. And to finish up, you always end your shows with the D12 shot. So firstly, I've never been able to work out what is D12 stand for? Or is that like Audrey Moore's, she drops, don't forget your towel. She won't tell us what it means. So is that, do you have a meaning for it? Is there a secret?

DaJuan Johnson (1:39:44)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Hahaha!

I don't I don't know. I've never I've never I haven't listened to her podcast. I have to. But I want to say the D 12 shot came from a client that would after we finished our coaching sessions or after we finished our community talks, they all said, I feel like I just got a D 12 shot. The D 12 is like a B 12 shot. So it's like a vitamin shot. We just want to be I wish it were I wish it were more mysterious than that.

David John Clark (1:40:24)
Twing! I love it.

No, I love that. I love it. And to finish up that brings it all back to what we've been talking about today with all my guests is that is storytelling and your D12 shot is a summary and it is a story. So how important is your podcast, not just from an educational perspective, but in that storytelling context, so to speak, to get things across to our audience.

DaJuan Johnson (1:40:30)
It's like a deep blow shot.

I just want to say that like there are people that my podcast reached that I will never know that you will never know David, like it's reaching and the fact that we get to tell these stories that we get to have this conversation and there's somebody in Bangladesh, there's somebody in Kentucky, there's somebody in all these different places that are hearing us talk about community and stories and they feel a part of it already. It is so incredibly important. And again, we may never know how important it is to people, but our job,

David John Clark (1:41:00)
Mmm.

DaJuan Johnson (1:41:24)
as actors and as podcasters is to make sure we continue to tell these stories.

David John Clark (1:41:29)
And that's why I asked you to come on my show because I listen to every episode, but you don't hear me listening or see me listening, but I'm there. And I wanted to thank you for being a part of my journey on my acting career as we go. And so now you're a part of my journey as well being on the show. So thank you very much for coming on, DaJuan. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

DaJuan Johnson (1:41:48)
Thank you so much for having me.

David John Clark (1:41:54)
Hello, hello. Welcome, Alyshia Ochse. Thank you very much for coming on the show. It's a pleasure to have you here.

Alyshia Ochse (1:41:54)
Okay.

Thanks for having me.

David John Clark (1:42:02)
Now this, was just saying offline, it's so wonderful to be able to chat to people that I listen to every day on their shows. You know, go out on my walks and have the podcast playing in the background, but to be able to put a face to the voice is just fantastic. And what I've said, what I'm trying to do is I just wanted to bring everyone that I listen to and everything that I get from them, their podcasts as an actor.

Alyshia Ochse (1:42:17)
Yeah, I'm so glad you listen.

David John Clark (1:42:28)
And bring them all together on my show and talk about things that I generally get. So I have a quick question for you and we'll go from there, but your podcast is That One Audition, which I just love. And there's so many stories that I've heard of people's that one audition that they just want to talk about, good or bad, of course. But your guests often share pivotal moments from auditions.

Alyshia Ochse (1:42:45)
Mm-hmm.

Thank

David John Clark (1:42:57)
What advice do you have for any actors or in my case for late bloomer actors approaching auditions that if you don't have the years of prior experience that younger actors or more experienced actors might have? What do you see from that?

Alyshia Ochse (1:43:12)
I think everything is practice. Truly, it doesn't matter when you start. I think it's the consistency of practice. If you would ask me this question five years ago, it would have been a different answer. But now that we're at home, we're self-taping, you're literally, you can send a tape in from Australia. We're getting tapes from London. Not that we weren't getting those in America already prior to the pandemic, but now with us being mobile.

Starting this business, I always related to athletes. So many people that come on my show, I also was an athlete before. I had a regimen of a stretch for a half hour. I had a three hour workout on soccer track, whatever it was. And then I'd have a half hour debriefing. I bring that into acting. So I don't care where you're starting. It's just what is your practice? And are you practicing with guidance? I think it's good to check to see where your guidance is. Because this is a numbers game.

It's a numbers game as well as a work ethic game. I always quote Bill Esper on the show. I'm sure if you've listened to it, you know, I always say it takes 10 years to start working as an actor. It takes 20 years to make a career. I just was interviewing somebody just right before this. So I don't care if you're starting when you're eight. I don't care if you're starting when you're 20. I started when I was 23. I felt like, my God, I'm starting so late.

David John Clark (1:44:13)
Yes.

Alyshia Ochse (1:44:32)
But we tell stories. We need people to tell stories that are in their 50s and their 80s. Stories are not just for eight-year-olds or 22-year-olds. I have a membership for actors called the Bridge for Actors. And a big part of the component of how I teach acting, as well as how I conduct myself in my own career, is it's not just

talent anymore. Talent, you can practice. That's the part I'm giving you, right? You can practice. You can make yourself have talent. The other component of this business that I think you have to really work on is the mental health. It is selection, not rejection. It has nothing to do with you, zero to do with you, which I think that's the hardest thing as an actor, stepping into this playing field, learning all the technique and then realizing you cannot take it personal. There's a puzzle. There is a piece of the puzzle missing.

David John Clark (1:45:00)
Mm.

Alyshia Ochse (1:45:26)
That's your audition. Are you gonna be the piece that actually fits? And you cannot control that. You can do great script analysis. You can do a great fucking audition. Can I cuss on this? But you might not have that one groove that fits the piece. This great man that I just was literally interviewing, he comes from a background of music and he relates acting to jazz. It truly is jazz. You have to like show up.

David John Clark (1:45:28)
Yeah.

Of course.

Mm.

Alyshia Ochse (1:45:52)
Kind of know the music that you're playing, but then look around at the world and stay connected to what everybody else is playing so you can come up with the best piece, the best project. I think a lot of actors try to do it right. They try to nail the script analysis and then they get really frustrated that they're not quote unquote working. So I think you also have to change your mentality of what does it mean to be a working actor and how passionate are you about it and just like starting a small business.

David John Clark (1:46:07)
Yeah.

Alyshia Ochse (1:46:20)
A small business isn't normally in the black right away. They're in the red for many years before they start to break even and then they start to have a profit. So let's see, are you doing this as a hobby? Are you doing this as a career? If you're doing it as a career, what kind of practice hours are you putting in? What kind of mentality are you working on? And then what's your knowledge of the business? And that does take 20 years to kind of really understand. I truly, so I always stand behind that. That's a long-winded answer for a lot of.

David John Clark (1:46:49)
No, I love it. And I didn't want all my questions always lean towards the late bloomers because that's who I am. And that's my show because you've just pointed it out exactly there that it doesn't matter where you are on this journey, when you started or if you're finishing or where you are in the middle, it's the same requirements for you to push forward and keep that journey going, isn't it?

Alyshia Ochse (1:46:50)
points.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I mean, look at Morgan Freeman, look at Christoph Waltz. They started in their 40s. There's so many great, wonderful actors that have started, quote unquote, later in their career. I don't see that as a deficit. I just think, what's your commitment to it?

And I always tell my students as well as my own self, instead of jumping landings, like going up the stairs, what's the one small step that you can make every day, every year, every quarter, so you can see your progress. It's progress, not perfection, so you can stay in it. So if it's your first year, it's like, okay, I wanna get some like camera relationship. I wanna understand the lights. I need to understand story and you'd understand what happens in a story.

What part am I in the story. Where do I fit in? How can I service the story? A lot of actors are servicing themselves and not the story. So.

David John Clark (1:48:08)
Yes. I love that. And so many people that I've spoken to today have, it's all come back to story. You know, whether we're acting, it's a story, whether we're a podcast host, talking to other actors, we're still a story. And I've had podcast gurus for one of a better word on today as well. And they still the same, they are telling a story in their journalism. So with your...

Alyshia Ochse (1:48:16)
Thank

Go.

David John Clark (1:48:34)
that one audition. And this is what I love about your show is it's hearing those moments where an actor is just something has happened that's so pivotal in their career. Is that what drives you forward in your podcast and how excited you get every time knowing that you're going to get another story that one audition?

Alyshia Ochse (1:48:53)
I love people, David. I love people. I love playing people, I love creating people. I love getting to know people. Every week that I interview somebody, I get to do a deep dive on their history, where they're from, how they came to be. I'm a big person of studying human behavior. That's how I study my characters. So I like finding the patterns.

David John Clark (1:49:16)
Okay.

Alyshia Ochse (1:49:19)
And my great teacher, Warner Loughlin, she would always say, seek to repeat until we know something different. So we are naturally by nature repeating a pattern constantly. So when I get to sit down and do an interview, I don't necessarily plan them out anymore. I find something in their career that tips me off so I have a starting point. And then usually I'm seeking to understand the pattern in their lives and in their careers.

And then when they disrupted that pattern and what was the result of the disruption, when we finally, that's where I think people's careers kind of do a big shift. You've been doing things kind of the same way, same way, same way. You come into some awareness as a person, as a artist, and then you watch that shift happen and work constantly. So that gets me excited. I also just, I've been marinating on this a lot lately, development versus relevancy, the business of acting.

David John Clark (1:50:09)
I love it.

Alyshia Ochse (1:50:16)
Kind of puts us in those moments, but we're in those moments as human beings all the time. When we go from our teens to our 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, we're in a development transitional place, and then all of sudden now we're relevant. Something's clicking, right? Even if you go with the industry, something's sticking. my God, I'm getting every audition now, I'm booking things. You're gonna go on a relevant turn for a while, but then it's like McConaughey being like, I don't wanna do Romcoms anymore.

David John Clark (1:50:20)
Mm.

Alyshia Ochse (1:50:40)
That was a development phase for him, even though he was Matthew McConaughey, he wanted to change how the world saw him. That development phase actually lasted like two to three years. Then he became relevant when we did True Detective and he did Dallas Buyers Club. So I like finding those, I call them peaks and valleys. I don't think there are peaks and valleys anymore, but early on in my interview process, I was always looking for the valleys and to see how people recovered out of them or when they hit that mountain top, how that felt.

David John Clark (1:50:49)
Mmm.

Yes.

Alyshia Ochse (1:51:07)
But now I've reworded it where it's like, okay, you're in a development phase here and now you're relevant here. What did you learn about being relevant? And what'd you learn when you got thrown back out in the development place? You know, and so that gets me excited.

David John Clark (1:51:19)
That's, I like that because I've said it a couple of times today. I call them peaks and troughs and you seem to have a lot more troughs than you do the peaks. But to have that approach to those peaks and troughs or the valleys in your case is just wonderful. Just as we wind up, there's been a lot of chatter about the changing world of acting. A lot of people are saying the industry's slowing down, AI is taking over.

The money is moving in a way that actors are missing out, even though you had the strikes to go for better options, that the people with the power brokers with all the money are trying to, they're finding other ways to make it. How are you seeing your actors on your show and people that you deal with dealing with that? Are they feeling, is it a negative overwhelming or are we just moving with the scope and learning to live with it?

Alyshia Ochse (1:52:14)
I think we're moving into a new scope and learning to live with it, just like when streaming hit, was nobody wanted to do it. Again, I'm gonna bring this back to development versus relevancy. And I don't mean this in an arrogant way, but I've worked more this year than I've worked any other year. I've worked every single month this year. I've done 12 projects this year. I've never done 12 projects before. But what I did at the top of the year is I called for help. I called every producer, casting director, everybody I knew.

David John Clark (1:52:32)
Nice.

Alyshia Ochse (1:52:44)
I don't have an ego when it comes to projects. I wanna work and I wanna work with good people and I wanna work on good stories and or I need to support myself. I think there's a shift in the business right now. So people that are used to just getting a phone call and not earning, I don't wanna say earning their roles because their career earns their roles. But if they're in a development phase right now and they're not willing to go,

David John Clark (1:52:56)
Yes.

Alyshia Ochse (1:53:12)
be a reoccurring for a few seasons. Yeah, they're feeling the constriction right now because there is a constriction. There's not as much stuff being made at this moment. I do think we're going to bounce back next year. There was a big saying going on in America. It's like survive till 2025 and like then thrive in 2025. I think it's all perspective. I think we have to shift our perspective. It is tough right now. It is tough for a lot of people. I'm disregarding that.

David John Clark (1:53:31)
Love it.

Alyshia Ochse (1:53:42)
But a lot of people that I'm talking to on my podcast that are having a difficult time or having a harder time with this year are used to a certain level of relevancy and that is shifted right now. That's all. It's shifted. And I'm gonna hold out hope for that, that it's just a shift and we just need to hold on and then we'll recalibrate. But that's also part of this business. Like I said, the development and the relevancy.

So I have a girlfriend that didn't work for three years. Guess what? She just booked three reoccurrings. She's having a great year. So I think this business, if you're reading all the headlines, if you're staying in that space, it's gonna get you down and you're gonna attach to the constriction. I don't wanna be attached to the constriction. I wanna remain creative. So if that means I have more time to write this year, okay, great.

A lot of other people have maybe more time and space or they have mortgages that they're worrying about, then they need to put, I think, energy somewhere else at that moment. We can create, we can still create. Even the guy I was just interviewing before, he is a musician and he was like, I can make music anytime that I want. I realized I had an epiphany this year. I never wanted to call myself a working actor. I am a working actor. Even if I don't work for another three years, I'm a working actor. I've been working for 20 years. So I think that's a mentality shift.

David John Clark (1:54:54)
Yes.

Alyshia Ochse (1:55:06)
And a chaos maker right now, there's a lot of negative stuff that's happening in the world. And man, do we love trading around those headlines or attaching to them. So that's maybe like, I just want it to be honest. I am having a good year. And I think other people are having good years and a lot of people are not. So how do we hold on? Just like two years ago, I was having a terrible time and I couldn't blame it on the constriction, right?

David John Clark (1:55:06)
you

Yeah.

Yes, exactly. That's life, isn't it?

Alyshia Ochse (1:55:34)
We as actors tend to really want to, we are emotional. I am emotional, we're sensitive. We wanna take things personally. I'm not trying to take this constriction. I don't think any other actor should take it personally. And let's not attach to it. And go find a story that you wanna tell and try to bring that to life, whether that's writing, producing it, going and shooting it with your friends. There's really no reason why you can't go out and make stuff right now.

David John Clark (1:56:01)
Beautiful, beautiful. That's a perfect way to end our chat today. Thank you very much. And I like what you said before, what was you saying about 2025?

Alyshia Ochse (1:56:02)
Yeah.

So, survive till 2025, but I've changed it to like, let's thrive in 2025. Like, yeah, let's do that.

David John Clark (1:56:14)
2025. What's scary, it's only two months away. So I know. Thank you very much. It's been an absolute pleasure for you to be part of this. It's, it's turning out to be absolutely wonderful. I don't know how I'm going to squeeze everyone in, but it's, think it's just going to have to be a long episode because there's just so many gold nuggets. It's beautiful. So thank you. Pleasure to have you on the show. Cheers.

Alyshia Ochse (1:56:19)
I know, I know.

That's fun.

Thanks, David. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much.

David John Clark (1:56:40)
Jordan Blair. Welcome, welcome, welcome. I know the voice and it's just so wonderful to have the face up on my screen and on my podcast. Welcome.

Jordan Blair (1:56:49)
Thank you, David. I'm so excited to be on your show.

David John Clark (1:56:52)
It's great. It's great. Now I've been saying every time I've spoken to someone, this end of season special that I've had, I've brought everyone in that's podcasts that I listen to. Now, most of the guests have been acting related and yourself and a couple of others, complete non-actors, podcast related, except you're a little bit different and we'll go into that because you do tell stories. That's what I love. So you're from the, Buzzsprout team, who is my wonderful podcast production company, which I love.

Jordan Blair (1:57:05)
Mmm.

Yeah.

David John Clark (1:57:22)
And you're also one of the hosts of Buzzcast. Now I didn't get my buzzes mixed up, which is good. Which is a pod, the podcast of Buzzsprout puts out for their, for the listeners or for anyone in general. That's correct, isn't it?

Jordan Blair (1:57:27)
Yeah, it's hard to do.

Mm-hmm, that is correct, yeah.

David John Clark (1:57:37)
Now we'll finish up with a little bit about that, but I wanted to talk about your podcast and your podcast hosting is with Dreamful. It's a bedtime story podcast. They're very different to what I've talked about here, but it does come back to story. So even though it's acting focused, what insights from your podcasting journey could help actors like myself, whether they're late bloomers or just any actor, grow our creative careers through effective storytelling.

Jordan Blair (1:57:48)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, well, it's so funny that you said this. I don't think I talked about it like at all on Buzzcast, but it's so funny because you said that I was one of the non-actor guests and I actually was a theater major in college. Yeah, yeah, so I do get to have a little bit of an advantage in this interview just because like I do have a background in acting and so I can speak to how it

David John Clark (1:58:22)
there you go.

Nice.

Jordan Blair (1:58:35)
plays into podcasting absolutely and how, yeah, so I just, was so excited to be able to tell you that. Like I do kind of know what I'm talking about a little bit. Yeah.

David John Clark (1:58:38)
Awesome.

I love it. love it. And everything comes in, everything comes into nice circle and everyone's joined and that's what I'm liking. Beautiful. And so how does your storytelling come from? Now you, if I'm correct, I apologize. I've not listened to one of your podcasts because I go to bed and I just go to bed. But, but I believe a lot of people, the reason you put your podcast together was to read a story out for children so that they could fall asleep.

Jordan Blair (1:58:49)
everything. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

That's fine. Me too, yeah, same.

Yeah, absolutely. So I started my podcast because I mean, it was five years ago and bedtime story podcasts weren't really like a huge thing at that point. And I was trying to find a good podcast for my kids to go to sleep to. And I just didn't think that they were like that good of quality. And so I couldn't find what I was looking for, which is really the ideal position to be in, right? When you're starting a podcast. Yeah. And so I couldn't

David John Clark (1:59:35)
Of course. Find that niche.

Jordan Blair (1:59:38)
Yeah, you find that niche. And so was looking for something that was like highly produced, long form, had beautiful music to it, and obviously gorgeous storytelling. And what wound up happening was I got to utilize my theater background because I'm very used to playing a character. And so, you know, the voice that you hear on here is completely different than the voice that I use on Dreamful. And I also was a children's librarian.

For a time. I know. the pieces just fell into place and I was like, I think this is my thing. And so yeah, so that's how I got into that.

David John Clark (2:00:07)
Where'd it go? I love it.

Awesome. was that before you joined the Buzzsprout team? So podcasting came with that storytelling, but that was your first foray into podcasting, was it?

Jordan Blair (2:00:21)
Yeah, yeah it was.

Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, I just I literally googled how to start a podcast. And of course, Buzzsprout popped up because Albin's an incredible marketer. And so how to start a podcast popped up with Buzzsprout. And I listened to all their podcasts and I devoured them. And I was like, this seems doable. I think I can do this. And so, yeah, I went with Buzzsprout as my host because they I really fell in love with like the people that are there and just how easy they made everything. And then

David John Clark (2:00:53)
Ditto.

Jordan Blair (2:00:56)
I was really active in their Facebook group, like overly active in their Facebook group and they were like, hey, do you just want to be a moderator? And I was like, okay. And then pretty soon they were like, hey, we're looking for a podcast producer. Would you want to do that? And so that's again, pieces falling into place, like just all over.

David John Clark (2:01:13)
It's like I've talked about on my podcast a lot about the sliding doors moment about how avenues and things come to you. And so, you know, if you go back 20 years ago, there's no way you probably would have thought I'll be working for a podcast host one day. So, wow.

Jordan Blair (2:01:18)
Mmm.

Yeah.

No, no, no, I was working at an accounting firm and I listened to podcasts religiously while I was like bookkeeping because it's a horrendously boring job. It really doesn't take that much thought because the computer does it for you. So you're just crunching numbers all day. And so I just fell in love with podcasts there. And so that's really how I found it was just through having a boring job. I fell in love with podcasts.

David John Clark (2:01:36)
you

And now you're the resident expert for all us users. I love it. And the podcast Buzzsprout, Buzzcast itself, was that a collaboration between everyone? You were on board with Buzzsprout then and that's when the podcast developed? Because you've been there from day one for that show, haven't you? No? Feels like forever for me.

Jordan Blair (2:01:54)
Yeah!

No, I haven't actually. Is that crazy? Yeah. It does. Me too a little bit. no, I feel like I've been on there for a long, long time. But before me, there was another producer there.

And I mean, I think I came in, I want to say like 70 or 80 episodes in, like, yeah, he just he had this like awesome project that he was moving on to. And so they were looking for a producer. And so I got to fill that role because I'd guested it a couple times on it. And apparently they liked me enough that they want to keep me around. And so it's yeah, it's really cool. So I think what

David John Clark (2:02:31)
Okay, well.

Jordan Blair (2:02:50)
what my gleaning of the story of them starting Buzzcast was. I'm not super sure on this, but I believe they said, we're a podcast hosting company, we need to have a podcast and we need to be able to like get information out to our users and let's just do this. And yeah, if you listen to episode one, there's a whole lot of like, okay, what are we doing?

And it's, you can literally hear them figuring it out along the way, which is magical in itself. And I think that's kind of like the cool thing about our podcast is we use it to experiment and we're very open with our listeners that we're experimenting here. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes things don't work. And if we fall on our faces and we're like, that didn't work. And then we move on to something else, but we're very open about it. And I think it actually

David John Clark (2:03:24)
So, most definitely.

Jordan Blair (2:03:36)
is very fun for the listeners too because we're so transparent about like, we're just gonna try this new thing and that didn't work, but let's try this and this is great. So I think it's great.

David John Clark (2:03:45)
I love that and a lot of the chat that I've had today with people has been about the tribe, the community that everyone's in. Now, Buzzsprout is a business. They provide me a service. I rely on them for everything, but I feel part of a community and I've been...

Jordan Blair (2:03:57)
Mm-hmm.

David John Clark (2:04:00)
I've had the late bloomer actor mentioned on your show because I've inputted into, you've asked questions about what do you think about this? And this way, we're doing this right. And so that's what I love about that because it becomes a two way street, even though you don't feel like you're part of it, you become part of it.

Jordan Blair (2:04:03)
Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean, you're you're basically a regular on a show without like actually having like been on the show, right? Like and everyone knows who you are.

David John Clark (2:04:27)
Yeah. Wonderful, wonderful. And I find that because you ask a question every week, you know, this week's question is and I go, they talked about, they answered me last week. I can't answer this question because I was on the last week show. So I'll skip, I'll skip a week. Give someone else a go.

Jordan Blair (2:04:40)
We need it.

Give us a little space play hard to get.

David John Clark (2:04:46)
No, I love it. love it. And, that's why I reached out to you guys to be part of this show, because you are part of my journey as an actor, which is what I deliver in my show and put out there. So I wanted to bring on Buzzsprout to show people that how our stories are delivered and how do you see podcasting delivering that world, you know, on an educational context, you know, because both

Jordan Blair (2:05:06)
Yes.

David John Clark (2:05:15)
podcast can be scripted, interview style like we are, or just one person talking to camera and telling his opinion, of, or her opinion.

Jordan Blair (2:05:24)
Yeah, yeah, I think that what's really magical about podcasts is that it's different as a creator than having a YouTube channel, than getting a television deal, than making a short film. First off, it's exponentially cheaper. You don't have to have the fancy camera equipment. You don't have to have costumes and makeup and sets.

And you don't have to have multiple actors. Maybe you just have like a few that are really good at voice acting and doing different voices. And there's something so magical about the audio medium that transports listeners. So, you know, if you are doing a podcast where it's like a, let's say a science fiction podcast and you're in a spaceship, you don't have to build the set. You don't have to get spacesuits for everybody. You don't have to put someone in like alien makeup.

You know, you just have voice actors and then you have like the sound design, you know, maybe you download some bleeps and bloops from like some free online form, right? Yeah, bleeps and bloops. But the listeners, and they might be in the background. It's just like a small thing that people might not even notice is there. But like suddenly they feel like they're in that space. And then you have like, you can hear the air ventilation system and you can hear like the doors opening as people are walking down the hallway. And

David John Clark (2:06:27)
bleep and bloop site.

Jordan Blair (2:06:47)
It's just such a great thing because it's different in that you're not performing like to a camera, you're not performing on a stage, but you are delivering a lot of the same passion, you're delivering a lot of the same performance through your voice. And I think that it's actually like a really great medium for creators in that way.

David John Clark (2:07:10)
Beautiful, beautiful. And to wind up, what's your visions for podcasting in the future? I know a lot of the podcasting podcasts, they talk a lot, there seems to be a lot of negativity come out, but then the numbers come out and show the growing shows and you look at the stats for Buzzcast or Buzzsprout and you know that that's probably different. So how do you feel about the future and where's podcasting going?

Jordan Blair (2:07:29)
Mm-hmm.

I think what I see is that, you know, we tell people all the time that podcasting is a marathon. It's not a race. It's hard to grow a podcast. It's really hard to grow show, you know, YouTube, they've perfected their algorithm. They're great at getting people like in front of people, TikTok, same thing, right? And podcasting is a little bit more organic. It is a little bit more, you know, you talked about the community and you talked about like the collaboration. It is more of that because one of the best ways to grow your podcast is to get on other podcasts.

And, you know, when you do that, not only are you giving your time and effort to the host and all that, but there's also like a sense of like promotion in that because you do get a chance to plug your show. You know, you do get a chance to promote yourself and like win the audience over. And another thing I think, you know, really shows how great podcasting is, is that we get a lot of people that are saying like,

It's too late to start a podcast. Everyone has a podcast. Everyone has a podcast. know, especially after COVID. I mean, there was just like a boom because everyone was home. Yeah. And honestly, that has died down quite a bit. And I think we're hearing that a little bit less, but I mean, there's millions of YouTube channels, millions. And Buzzsprout, I mean, we're the largest podcast, like paid podcast hosting company in the world. And we only host 120,000 podcasts.

David John Clark (2:08:37)
Mmm, everywhere.

yeah.

Jordan Blair (2:09:01)
Yeah, it's exponentially smaller. And so if you can put out a good podcast and you, you know, do your marketing, right, get in the community, get to know other podcasters, you know, it, the interesting thing about podcasting that I love is that it's not a competition. Like there's no competition. There's just like community. And so when you have another podcast that's in the niche, it's a great opportunity for

cross promotion. It's a great opportunity to guest on each other's shows. It's a great opportunity to like lift each other up. And that's something I really love about podcasting. And so I think that podcasting is growing. It is growing slowly. And I think that there was a whole lot of like, was it Chicken Little, like the sky is falling, know, podcasts are dying and you know,

David John Clark (2:09:49)
especially with the AI, we've talked about AI a lot today. So, hmm.

Jordan Blair (2:09:52)
Yes. And honestly, think that crappy podcasts are dying. think that, like, yes, I think that good podcasts are just persevering and they're pushing through and like more coming in. mean, I have more podcasts than I can even listen to and there's plenty more that are going to come down the road. Yeah, there's plenty more that are going to come down in the next year or so that I'm going to have to add to my queue. But

David John Clark (2:10:10)
I'm the same.

Jordan Blair (2:10:19)
Yeah. So I think that podcasting is, it's a great time to get into podcasting still.

David John Clark (2:10:23)
That's awesome. And I know a lot of people in the Facebook group comment about their stats and their numbers. someone said it to me and I use it a lot now to say, well, it doesn't matter what your stats are. If you've got 20 people downloading your episode, which is not a lot, you think, that's not a lot of people. But if you put it this way, if 20 people walked in and listened to you for an hour in a room, you'd be blown away, wouldn't you? So.

Jordan Blair (2:10:47)
Yeah, absolutely. My office is way too small for that many people. There's no way they could fit in here.

David John Clark (2:10:54)
That's awesome. Jordan, thank you very much. I know it's been very quick, but I've had a wonderful day today and I've got so many people that have come on and it's all a team and our collaboration come through. It's been brilliant. So thank you very much.

Jordan Blair (2:11:06)
Thank you so much for having me on, I appreciate it.

David John Clark (2:11:09)
And I just want to say quickly before we do finish, I do love your laugh and I don't listen to it at one and a half speed. I listen to all my podcasts at normal speed. don't understand how you can listen to someone talk so fast. Especially you Americans, you talk so fast anyway for me being Australian. I couldn't imagine putting it on the one and a half speed or 1.25 speed because you're already so fast. Whereas us Australians, we're a bit slower and a bit more laid back. So maybe people speed us up.

Jordan Blair (2:11:16)
Thank you. Thank you.

Yeah, absolutely. No way.

David John Clark (2:11:40)
Thank you very much, Jordan. It's been a pleasure.

Anne Alexander-Sieder (2:11:45)
hello.

David John Clark (2:11:46)
Hello, Anne. Welcome. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you very much for coming on. I was just saying to you offline, it's been a very, very long day, but it has been absolutely wonderful. This end of year special and I really appreciate you being part of it. How are you?

Anne Alexander-Sieder (2:12:00)
I'm super excited to be here, David. I'm glad we finally made this happen. We've been sort of chasing this for a while. Yeah.

David John Clark (2:12:05)
But.

It is. I talk about the time zones and it's so amazing trying to balance and work out people's time zones. And you are the first person from Europe that I've had now. No, Germany's under one time zone. So that makes it a bit easier. You know, juggling like America, you've got multiple time zones from the East coast to the West coast. So it's fun, but

Anne Alexander-Sieder (2:12:18)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Most of my clients are actually, well, they're in Europe, but luckily Europe mostly has one time zone, mostly, like Western Europe and other than the UK. But, but I also have a lot of clients in the US. So it's so true trying to find that balance between everything. Yeah.

David John Clark (2:12:36)
it's wonderful.

And yeah, and that's why this has worked out really, really well because we're literally following the sun around the earth today as people getting ready. So it's fantastic.

Anne Alexander-Sieder (2:12:53)
What

David John Clark (2:12:53)
You are the host of the podcast Act Bold. It is in my list of favorite podcasts that I queue up straight away and listen to. So thank you very much. And what I want to chat about is that your podcast focuses on building thriving acting careers. Now, you are, if you don't mind me calling you, a late bloomer like myself. Or yeah, I had

Anne Alexander-Sieder (2:13:17)
Sort of, sort of, yeah.

David John Clark (2:13:19)
Janet McMordy is on as well and her podcast is Second Act Actors. So you're a bit of that as well. So you've come back after you've had your child and moved to Germany.

Anne Alexander-Sieder (2:13:23)
Yeah.

Yes. Like, I was a professional actor from the time I was about 19. I I studied and then I was a professional actor until about 28. And then I got married, had a baby, moved to Germany. Actually, moved to Germany, got married, had a baby. And then, yeah, I mean, it just threw a whole wrench in the thing because I didn't know how to speak German. So, you know.

David John Clark (2:13:33)
Wow.

Hmm.

I can't even get my American accent down, let alone learn a whole new language. So well done. What's your advice for actors who are starting later or coming back to it and need to develop a career with a limited time and experience? And in your case, maybe even being in a completely different country.

Anne Alexander-Sieder (2:13:57)
Yeah.

Yeah. So for me, one thing that was really pivotal in getting my skills back in order, or in the case of someone who's like picking up a passion that they've always had but never, never studied about, was I started to bring in coaches to Munich. So I brought in amazing acting coaches from the UK, from LA, from New York.

And I was doing that once, sometimes twice a month. And this helped me in many different ways. One, it got me the skills to get my skills back to a point where I felt like, okay, 16 year break, now I feel good again, let's get in there. You know? So that was huge. It also, I was able to study with these amazing coaches for free. I was able to build a community.

David John Clark (2:15:01)
Love it.

Anne Alexander-Sieder (2:15:12)
And I, you know, take the courses that I wanted to take, take the workshops I wanted to take. It was like, Meissner, oh!, Chubbuck, Laban, right, Manimal work, this, whatever it was. And so I was able to do that. I was able to build a community in my area with actors who I didn't know before. And lastly, and maybe most importantly, I was able to build a really sustainable side income,

David John Clark (2:15:30)
Nice.

Anne Alexander-Sieder (2:15:42)
to that I could have turned into a full-time income, by the way. I mean, that's how lucrative it was, but that wasn't my interest, right? My interest was just getting my skills back. And after a year and a half, I was like, okay, that was good. But I still do use that particular thing whenever, because it's also super useful if you want to meet a casting director or you want to, right? If you want to meet them on eye level. So what can I offer you?

David John Clark (2:15:47)
Wonderful.

Yeah, yes.

Anne Alexander-Sieder (2:16:08)
And so bring them in to do a self tape workshop or a director bring them in to do a scene study workshop, whatever it may be, someone that you're interested in working in. So it was such a pivotal way for me to get back into the industry in a way that gave me confidence and the funds I needed, because we know acting is super expensive, right? You have to get headshots, you have to get your show reel, you have to get an editor, you have to have, you know, you

David John Clark (2:16:30)
yeah.

Anne Alexander-Sieder (2:16:36)
all of these things that we have. And of course we have to be working on our skills. So that was the first thing. So this answer is sort of two-fold. The second thing was, yeah. And I love that. I'm actually, I don't know if this is the place and if it's not, you can definitely cut this out, but I am considering doing a workshop teaching actors how to do this. Because for me, what was so useful was,

David John Clark (2:16:46)
No, let's love it.

Anne Alexander-Sieder (2:17:05)
I, as I said, I didn't speak German when I moved to Germany. I, my German just wasn't good enough that I was going to throw that extra wrench into my, you know, trying to learn acting again by, by having to figure out the language and express myself in another language that I didn't feel a hundred percent comfortable in. And so, so for me, it was also, I was able to bring people to me in this sort of desert location of English speaking

workshops. So I know a lot of my clients are like in Idaho or in Utah or, you know, could be in the middle of, you know, somewhere else, Tasmania, whatever it may happen to be, right? Where they feel like they're sort of a drought of what they need. And so they can bring the people to them because really you only need a handful of other actors to make it viable and sustainable.

David John Clark (2:17:47)
Yes.

Anne Alexander-Sieder (2:18:01)
So that was one. So if people are interested in that, I am considering, I don't have anything to sell at this point, but I'm considering doing a workshop around that.

And the other thing was when I was young, right, when I was in my 20s, I feel like the world just kind of opened its doors to young people in a way that doesn't happen when you're over 45. And I was, I was 47 when I returned to acting and that was 11 years ago. I'm 58 now. So it, yeah, I have a lot of life left. Absolutely. No, I mean, I don't even say that like as a joke. I have a lot of life left and I plan on...

David John Clark (2:18:29)
Still young, still young, we're all still young. Well, I hope so, don't we? Yeah. Beautiful.

Anne Alexander-Sieder (2:18:39)
living it, you know, and I don't feel like age is any kind of a block. But what you don't have is the advantage of sort of like this blind, you know, this is going to work and why wouldn't it work? And right, because you've had some experience in life and you know that, you know, things don't come necessarily that easy. So,

What I realized about five years, you took me about five years back into my journey, because the first five years I was sort of doing everything I had been doing when I was in my twenties. I realized that if I wanted, if I actually wanted to start to get extraordinary results, I was going to have to take extraordinary action. I couldn't just continue doing what everybody else was doing and what I had been doing as a young actor.

Even though that had worked for me, right? I was SAG-AFTRA, I was working on my equity card, I didn't have another sustainable job or whatever you call it. I was able to live just from being an actor, but it wasn't because of strategy, it was because of, I would say, more luck, just being in the right place at the right time. And of course, I believe in my skills. I'm a good actor, right? But...

David John Clark (2:19:52)
Of course, of course. But sometimes it's about the right doors being there when you're in the right location.

Anne Alexander-Sieder (2:19:57)
Yeah. And so that was what I really help actors with now is figuring out literally how to get into the rooms that matter. And that's based on a five pillar framework that I use that, you know, mindset, branding, marketing, networking and community and really building those pillars holistically so that you're setting up a strong foundation so that you

always know what you have to do to keep moving forward. As opposed to, think so many actors will like, okay, now it's, you know, it's been a few months. I'm going to send out my email blast to the casting directors or agents if they're looking for that or whatever it may be. But there is no whole lot of thought other than like, consider me, please, you know, think of me. And there's, there's luck involved with that too, because if you happen to hit them at a time,

when they're looking for your type, that may work. But there are better ways to go about it so that it's much more strategic and is actually building relationships because people like to work with people they like. It really boils down to that. And also they need to know what you're capable of.

David John Clark (2:21:12)
Yeah. And I love that. And that comes through quite clearly in your podcast, which is wonderful. And throughout everyone I've chatted to here, it's all come down to several factors of what podcasts are. It's the education. It's about building a community and establishing contact with people and learning so you can pick and choose. So it's great because we have access to so much now with the internet. And I listened to your podcast coming out of

Germany. And that is just amazing because 10, 15, 20 years ago that me and you would have never met and I would have never known what you had to offer. And anything that you do offer would have to be local because you just, you wouldn't have that reach unless you had that ability to jump on a plane and, and, people learn from you that way. But one in a million of people got to do that because it's you just, there was no way to sell yourself to the world. And that's what's wonderful about this medium I feel.

Anne Alexander-Sieder (2:22:08)
Absolutely. It's also like for me, I don't know. Yeah. I really love being able to share what I've learned. First of all, it kind of helps me stay accountable to myself. You know, that's, it's not entirely altruistic, right? I mean, because I'm one of those people, I think I learned best by teaching. So, and like, it helps me to really solidify as like, you know, and

put it into like concrete words. This is working because this and this and this, which helps me to refine it. And so, yeah. And then to be able to share that knowledge because as you know, acting can be a very, can be a very disempowering journey because the one thing, there's only one thing that's really not in our control and that is somebody else's decision. And

everything else. Do they know you're alive? Do they know you're talented? Do they know where you fit into the different worlds that they are casting? If those are all within your control, whether they know that or not. And so that's what I think, you know, most actors should be concentrating on are things that you can actually achieve as opposed to, you know, I have so many clients that will originally come come to me and they'll be like,

I want to star in a Netflix series. I want to do this. I want to do that. it's... That's great, but it's intangible. It's not achievable in itself. You have to first get the other milestones along the way.

David John Clark (2:23:39)
Yes.

I love that. I love it. Thank you. This has all been about showing people what their journey is as actors and how we're all connected. And that's why I brought on all the podcast hosts that I listen to because they make my journey better. And I learned so much from all of them. And now by bringing them into my show, that journey is now joined. And that's what I wanted today was to share

what I learn and who I know so that if I can get one more person to listen to Anne Alexander-Sieder and her podcast, then I know that they're going to learn something from her and then move on their own journey together. So thank you very much.

Anne Alexander-Sieder (2:24:23)
Well, I really appreciate that, David. Thank you for this opportunity. And it's a beautiful idea.

David John Clark (2:24:29)
Thank you very much. It's been short and sweet, which is fantastic with everyone that's on board. It'll just, it's going to make for a fantastic episode. I will share the links to everything that you do and links for your podcast in the show notes so that we can continue on this journey together. So thank you very much for coming on today.

Anne Alexander-Sieder (2:24:47)
It has been my absolute pleasure. Thank you.

David John Clark (2:24:49)
Awesome. Thank you.

David John Clark (2:24:50)
Well, we have Rachel Baker back in the house. How fantastic she was on early in the year. Welcome back to the show, Rachel.

Rachel Baker (2:24:58)
Thank you. feel like it was really not too long ago that I was here.

David John Clark (2:25:03)
No, that's the nature of this year as well. It has gone so fast. It's hard to believe that it's October and Christmas is just around the corner.

Rachel Baker (2:25:11)
I know, I know, it's a bit exhausting, but yeah. This happens every year though, we're like, my god, how is it October? And it's like, this is what we said last year.

David John Clark (2:25:22)
I have had a long, long day with plenty of guests and there's been a theme that has come through a lot and it's all about community has been one of the biggest one and storytelling. So your podcast, Don't Be So Dramatic explores the roles of different people in the industry. So for all actors listening to this show or

getting on board your podcast, regardless of where they're starting in life, whether they're a late bloomer like myself, or they're a young straight out of university, how important is it to understand all aspects of the entertainment industry beyond just the acting component?

Rachel Baker (2:25:59)
Yeah, well, that is kind of why I started my podcast as well is because I wanted people in the industry to be more informed about like, how different people work. And from the perspective of someone who does that thing. And what I mean by that is like, feel like

you know, when we're giving advice to actors and you know, you're doing a workshop with a casting director or a director, you're always given the advice of, well, my advice to actors as a casting director. And I always found that really repetitive. And so what I think is really interesting is just hearing the story of how a casting director got to where they are and like,

what it is like for them to work and understanding because I think as an actor, you are very focused on yourself and your work and the work that you are getting and how you can get more work, but you are not necessarily thinking about how that casting director's day has gone, why they are not replying to your email at that certain time. Cause they're a whole

other person living a whole other life, you know, they're not like, they've got other things to do. And so I think when you can understand the different roles in the industry and how like what their day to day looks like, how they work, what their jobs are, you begin to understand that you're just like one piece in the puzzle, you know, and I think that that is really humbling and grounding. And I think that that's really important as an actor,

David John Clark (2:27:20)
Yes.

Rachel Baker (2:27:47)
to aim for those things because it takes away that feeling of this is my whole world and when someone says no to me, that's me being rejected, that sort of thing. So it opens up this whole like discussion around, rejection and getting jobs and not getting jobs and realizing that

you are just one piece in the puzzle and it really doesn't mean anything if you do or don't get a job. It sucks, but it doesn't mean anything.

David John Clark (2:28:23)
And I think a lot of your guests, you really promote a lot and they talk about a lot that, and it comes down to what I said at the start of the question was this community that they are part of our journey together and they want us to get the job as much as we want to get the job. So they're they're not a gatekeeper is the word I used when I interviewed a casting director. A lot of people think they're a gatekeeper, but they're not. They are just another cog in the wheel part of our journey.

Rachel Baker (2:28:35)
Hmm.

David John Clark (2:28:50)
And that's what we need as actors to understand, isn't it?

Rachel Baker (2:28:53)
Yeah, definitely. And I always think about how hard it must be for people like casting directors or like directors in the industry, because imagine the amount of people, probably specifically actors, during their day, or on social media, who kind of take this idea of trying to get into their good books. And I feel like they would never know if someone just genuinely

wants to give them a compliment or wants to be their friend without the guise of, I want you to like me so that you'll cast me in something. I think that must be really hard, being in certain jobs in the industry, because you just never know what people's intentions are. And I think, community is so important. And that kind of encapsulates this idea of networking as an actor.

And I think some people can misconstrue that idea of networking by thinking that you need people to like you and you need to go and message people in positions of power or that have done something that you enjoy or want to do. And, try and mold yourself to be something that you think they will cast or that they will like.

David John Clark (2:29:58)
Yes.

Rachel Baker (2:30:14)
And in doing that, in networking in that way, you lose yourself and you lose the thing that is going to make you castable, which is being you, which is your uniqueness. So yeah, I think that's really interesting.

David John Clark (2:30:27)
Yes, definitely. And networking, I've always hated the word networking because I come from a government agency and networking is how people get promoted. And I've always seen that in a negative light because it's a jobs for the boys and who you know, and that sort of stuff. Whereas the networking we're talking about in an acting context is, it's more than likely a lot of people do it that way, but it's the wrong way to do it. Networking is about knowing people and sharing what

Rachel Baker (2:30:36)
Ha

Mm.

David John Clark (2:30:57)
you've learnt and sharing your journey, which is what I do on my podcast is what you do on your podcast about sharing information so that other people can speed up that process of their career. And that's the positive side of it, isn't it?

Rachel Baker (2:31:10)
Yeah, definitely. And I think, as you say, like networking, it's a very like corporate thing. Whereas I think networking in a creative industry, it's very natural, you will naturally gravitate towards people that you have things in common with that, like you can share some sort of your story with that's going to resonate with them.

Not everyone that you or I email is going to want to be on our podcasts. And that's fine. And so I think I always take, who wants to be on it as cool. I believe that there is a reason that this person and I are connecting on this podcast and not trying to think, everyone's going to be on my podcast. Everyone's going to want to network with me.

I think the people that you're meant to work with always end up finding you and wanting to work with you too. And so rather than it being like an uphill battle of, my God, I like you idolize one person and think I've got to network with them. I've got to find a way to get in the room with them and network and be friends with them. Just knowing that, the right people

are going to gravitate towards you and those are the people that you should be quote unquote networking with. And I find that as well, people that I've become really good friends with have become really successful in the industry. And, in some ways that has benefited me as well. And I didn't become friends with those people because I thought, they're really good. I know they're going to make something of themselves one day.

Just that we were friends. And I think that that's really cool that it happens that way and it's not like I'm going to be friends with this person so they can do something for me kind of thing and I don't really like that, but yeah.

David John Clark (2:33:08)
Mm-hmm.

I think it comes down and we all talk about this a lot on your show and my show and any podcast that I listen to is that imposter syndrome, isn't it? And I've, I've found, especially today and this year, because I've interviewed a few podcasts hosts that I listen to, I've come in with this, my God, I'm talking to Rachel Baker and I'm talking to this person, I'm talking to that person because I was excited. And then they are, most of them have been surprised by that. Oh my God, no, I'm just, I'm just you.

Rachel Baker (2:33:18)
Mm.

David John Clark (2:33:41)
And we're just all normal people doing the same thing and sharing information. And that's what I love. And that's why I've brought everyone together today to interweave our journey together and show people that that's how you get forward in this industry.

Rachel Baker (2:33:41)
Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think with imposter syndrome, it can, it can be helpful, it can be helpful in a way that it kind of keeps yourself in check. But I think it's a great thing to also overcome for yourself in those moments, as you say, like today for yourself, when you are talking to people that you look up to, and that you appreciate their work, it's great to

remind yourself, I am in the room with this person. So what does that say about me? It means that I am good enough to be here. I'm good enough to be doing the work that I want to do. And I think that that's really important for all of us to consistently remind ourselves because we get told so many times, no, that I think unconsciously we go, oh, I'm not good enough. But the reality is you are good enough.

David John Clark (2:34:46)
Yes.

Rachel Baker (2:34:48)
And it's just the opportunities that are right for you are going to be the ones that are the yeses.

David John Clark (2:34:54)
Beautiful. That's so pertinent when you're getting into the room with the casting director, because they are just another part of the cog in the wheel. And at end of the day, the casting director doesn't make that decision. They are just helping you get to the right person and someone else makes that decision essentially in the end. So that's the journey we're all on, isn't it?

Rachel Baker (2:35:15)
Absolutely. And, I'm working on something at the moment and I always think like, I know actors who I'm thinking about when we go into casting and they don't know that I'm thinking about them. And someone I could have met when I was in an acting class or something. And so it just reminds me you just never know who is going to call you one day and be like, Hey,

I've got a role for you. You know what I mean? So it's not always about the casting directors. You just have no idea where these opportunities are going to come from. They could come from anywhere. And I think that's really exciting because it kind of alleviates that pressure that if, you feel like you're not impressing the 10 casting directors in Australia, that also doesn't matter.

David John Clark (2:36:06)
Exactly. Well, it's a perfect moment to end it on. Thank you very much, Rachel. It's been a pleasure to have you back on the show. I know it's quick and short and and smart as they say, but it's been a brilliant day today and it's been so much fun having everyone to come on for this end of year special. So thank you.

Rachel Baker (2:36:23)
Thank you for having me. I've enjoyed it so much.

David John Clark (2:36:28)
Great to see you again. Thank you.

David John Clark (2:36:29)
Emily McKnight is in the house. Welcome. Welcome to the Late Bloomer Actor. Thank you very much. You are my lucky last for the day. 12 guests I've had since 7am this morning. So welcome and thank you.

Emily McKnight (2:36:40)
Well, it's amazing to be here and well done you that's super impressive.

David John Clark (2:36:45)
I'm so surprised that it has worked as I said to you offline. We're just starting to get some internet glitches now that might be the 5pm everyone's home from work day. So, but other than that, it's been a wonderful day and everything's worked flawlessly. So I've loved it. Now, Emily, you are the host of An Actor Survives here in Australia. So a fellow Australian podcaster. So thank you.

Your podcast explores how performers stay grounded through the ups and downs of this industry, which is something I've been talking about all day, the, the, ebbs and flows of the industry. So for all actors, whether they're starting later in life or just, or, starting straight out of university, what's the key in your opinion to staying resilient and thriving, especially when the path, it isn't straightforward.

Emily McKnight (2:37:29)
Mmm. I'm never one to give just a simple, this is the key. If there was a key, my gosh, that's right. but one of the things that I do on my podcast is I ask every guest for their top five survival tips on how to survive a career in the industry. And one thing that recurs quite a lot, which I've really held onto myself is building your community. So

David John Clark (2:37:37)
We'd be all rich.

Emily McKnight (2:37:57)
having friends both within the arts and outside of the arts that love and support you no matter what, that you can talk to about the ups and downs and that can go through with you. That has really, that's been, as I say, a recurring theme, recurring tip that people have given. And I've definitely noticed it in myself the more I am part of a community.

Both giving and receiving in that the easier it does become because we are all in it together. And, you know, if you didn't get that part, maybe someone amazing did and you can celebrate them and get to know them and make a new friend out of it. Being able to celebrate and support each other and therefore be celebrated and supported in return, I think is absolutely a way to survive it and to be resilient.

And then I guess the other one would be just trusting in yourself and that not getting where you want to be is really frustrating and can be really upsetting and can be really depressing. But it doesn't actually mean anything to do with the ability that you have or the passion that you have. That is your driver. And yeah, we can all get better. We can all improve our skills. But if you didn't get something

It's so easy to go, it's because I'm rubbish. That's just not the case. and so having that belief in yourself to continue, continue the work, but also to know that, yeah, you're good enough to be there and you deserve a place in the industry.

David John Clark (2:39:37)
I love that. A lot of your guests, all talk about it. You've had some well-known Australian actors on your show and it's liberating, isn't it, to hear them speak the same way we feel every day. You say, my God, that's how I feel and I'm nowhere near your class of actor. And they go, no, that's just the way it is, isn't it?

Emily McKnight (2:39:43)
Yeah.

Yeah. And I've really tried to get a lot of different actors with lots of different types of experience. Some that, know, really just beginners and some that are really experienced just because I wanted to be a conversation about how we all do it, not about, this person's famous. So they'll have all the secrets. It is. It's so refreshing when you get somebody that you perceive as successful go, yeah. Well, actually, you know, there were a couple of years there where I got zero acting work.

Or, I got rejected from this really huge job that I really wanted or whatever. And just that idea of community and we're all in it together and we're all on this journey. It's been a magical thing for me in my own personal growth to be able to have those conversations.

David John Clark (2:40:42)
And is that, how long have you had your podcast going and what made you say, you know what, I'm going to put a show together?

Emily McKnight (2:40:50)
Yeah, it's kind of a long story, but I'll try and make it quick. The way that it first, the idea first bubbled was because I was struggling. I'd finished, done drama school, done all the things, just wanted so badly just to get some work as an actor and just wasn't getting any. And started to really go, well, how do people do it? How do I get up in the morning with no agent or no auditions and go,

Do I still get to call myself an actor? What happens when I get the job and then I get rejected? And what does that mean? Does that mean I'm terrible? Or what happens if I get the job and then I get imposter syndrome and I can't do it or all of those things. So I had all these questions in my own life. And then I went, you know what? I'm going to interview people and find out how they do it. And then I'm going to put it in a book. So we have this like resource package. And then I went, wait a minute, people don't read books. They listen to podcasts.

David John Clark (2:41:31)
Yes.

Nice.

Emily McKnight (2:41:47)
I'm going to make a podcast. And I literally had never listened to really any podcasts at that time. And it started on zoom with Kate Mulvaney was my first guest because I emailed her and said, Hey, I'm thinking of doing this podcast. Here's my idea. Here are the questions. Would you be a guest? And she went, yes, but it has to be this weekend because I'm in America about to film. Has to be this weekend on zoom.

David John Clark (2:41:48)
Ha ha!

Hahaha

Emily McKnight (2:42:10)
And I just went, okay. So we, just jumped on zoom and hit record and that was the start. And then I went, I guess I make a podcast now. And then I've had to learn everything. I've had to learn about all the equipment and how to edit and how to make it happen. And you know, it's hard work for sure, but, I really love it. And it's amazing that people listen to it. always is amazing to me that people like it too.

David John Clark (2:42:15)
Beautiful.

Mmm.

That's awesome. I'm the same. I was just, just saying to Rachel that I've had all these guests on today that I've got, my God, I've got so and so from such and such a podcast on and they go, my God, you're excited about, I'm just a podcaster. So we're all the same. I love it. And it's hard because as podcasters, as actors, we don't get a lot of feedback. So, you know, you go into the casting room or you send in your self tape, you don't hear anything back.

Emily McKnight (2:42:43)
I Yeah.

David John Clark (2:42:57)
You put your episode out there, you don't get a lot of feedback back. People are listening, you know, people don't, YouTube, not like YouTube where people comment because they're sitting in front of their computer or there, it's a lot easier to go, Hey, I'm going to throw a comment down, but podcasts are out walking or they're doing the dishes or whatever. So they don't have that ability to really leave a comment. So you don't get that feedback. And that's the hardest thing for an actor or a podcaster, isn't it?

Emily McKnight (2:43:19)
Yeah, it totally is. And I tell you what, it is so meaningful when you do hear from someone. So to anyone listening, go to your favorite podcast and just send them a message and just say, Hey, I really like your podcast. Cause I'll tell you, it makes such a difference.

There been times where I've been like, maybe, you know, is it too much work or do people really like it or whatever? And then I'll get a message from someone going, Hey, you know what? I was thinking of quitting acting. This happened to me once. I was going to quit acting. And then I found your podcast and now I'm inspired. And I was like, what? What? I didn't know. I didn't even know you. That's so cool.

David John Clark (2:43:56)
that.

And it is that you only need one person to come back and say, I've taken something from you and that makes you just go, my God, that's worth the effort now, isn't it?

Emily McKnight (2:44:06)
Yeah. And I'm also, by the way, very keen to not put myself on any pedestal. Like I don't have all the answers. I'm just going on this journey and I happen to be recording conversations I have with people. And I'm very careful to, I don't want to be like, you know, I've got all the answers now. I absolutely don't. I'm still exploring.

David John Clark (2:44:26)
I'm the same. Type Talent is a small school here that does acting classes, six month classes. And they've taken me in for each class as a mentor. go in there because of my podcast and my involvement in the Adelaide community, which talk about imposter syndrome right there. But it's the same thing of they asked me once, how come you don't do any training or delivery or sell a course? I said, well, I don't want to.

I started my Facebook group that I run here and then I started my podcast, not because I want to sell something, but because I want to give back to that community and share what I've learned because there can be so many hurdles along the way that if I can make someone find one way around the hurdle to get their career further forward, then I've done my job and that's what I do it. And I think that's what everyone I've spoken to today is that's why they do it. And it's just wonderful.

Emily McKnight (2:45:18)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

David John Clark (2:45:23)
I thank you very much for coming on. know it's short and sweet, but today has just been such a wonderful day and the stories that have come out and we're all on similar paths together. So it's a pleasure to have you on my journey now as an actor and to be part of yours. So thank you very much.

Emily McKnight (2:45:41)
Thanks so much for having me and I can't wait to listen to the episode with all of the guests and be inspired by them all. That's awesome.

David John Clark (2:45:48)
And if you can leave a comment and rating and review, that would be awesome. As we all say. Thank you, Emily. It's been a pleasure to have you on the show. Cheers.

Emily McKnight (2:45:51)
Yeah, that's right.

Thanks for having me.